Now it’s OK to plug-in during the day?
NYC blacked out in 2003
No longer about excess capacity?
Read a great article on the use of gasoline versus electricity as an energy source this morning. According to research by Argonne via AutoWeek, in a perfect world, electricity is superior to gasoline. Of course, we don’t live in a perfect world and comparing gas vehicles to hybrid vehicles to plug-in hybrid vehicles to battery-electric vehicles isn’t as easy one might think.
Anyway, the article got me thinking, years ago electricity critics used to question plug-in vehicles, largely in terms of the need for additional power generation – typically coal-power – as well as the need for a much more robust super grid.
Have those issues been resolved?
Back in the early days the canned plug-in advocacy response was that there was plenty of excess nighttime capacity. In fact, plug-in vehicles, the studies suggested then, could actually help balance the load on the grid – a win-win situation it seemed – as long as charging was done at non-peak hours.
Yet, more and more, the electricity community is trying to make charging capabilities much more robust – almost anytime, anywhere. Thus, one can drive 30 miles to work from the suburbs to downtown, recharge, and head home without any range anxiety.
But, wouldn’t such charging utilize more expensive peak electricity? Likewise, during hot California summers, for instance, couldn’t a number of new plug-ins charging during the day result in the need for increased power generation?
Sure, such charging stations could be connected to solar power generation, for instance, and maybe they should be required to be green-powered. Moreover, many of these charging stations might provide free charging. Isn’t that a bad idea, promoting peak energy charging, unless green and sustainable?
Anyway, I haven’t seen any new studies on the subject of current electricity generation and grid capabilities in regards to plug-in vehicles, but has something changed? Has anyone seen a new study that demonstrates that anytime charging is not a problem?
Your post doesn’t totally fit Clare, but since I’m against day time plug-in charging, unless solar powered, I’ll let it slide.
Me and Sean were thinking about acquiring a few solar power panels for our property last year. The only issue was the price tag. The most affordable solar system we identified was close to ten thousand bucks. It might have taken us several years to recoup that amount of money. Anyways, we came across these recommendations for making your own solar power systems. We decided to try that way. It saved us a great deal of cash, and the no cost, environmentally friendly energy is excellent!
We operate several of our kitchen appliances off of this grid.
Smurf – it sounds like you are in an area where the cost of power varies according to the hour or load – true?
Larry,
When I said the “the cost is less” I was simply comparing a grid connected solar system to one that has a battery system to store it’s own power.
In that comparison, the grid connected system has a much lower cost as there is no battery….
Dahc,
I’m fine with it.
They track both the peak and non-peak power I generate. They take the excess peak power you send them and subtract from the peak hours you use every month then bill you the difference. They do the say for non-peak power.
It’s not perfect, but it’s OK.
Smurf-
This is a little off-point, but do you feel that you get fairly compensated for sending excess power back into the grid? (I guess that presumes you own the solar system rather than rent it).
Before the city of LA squashed my new driveway plans I had intended to buy a solar package, but when I was investigating the different solar options – this was a couple of years ago – i was disappointed how much my power company would charge me for using their electricity and how little I was given when sending excess power back – even though my excess would have been during peak times.
That, and some of the points Larry made, makes feel little better trusting the utility companies compared to trusting Chevron. It also made me feel like I’d rather say FU to the power company and be my own power company.
…. but this view effectively means that plug-ins have nothing to do with solar recharging – they are separate and independent of each other and this takes us back to how the grid will be able to recharge cars during the day when they are already running at peak output.
and this point: ” 1. The cost is lower.”
actually the cost is not lower if you use electricity during peak hours because the way most utilities add extra generating capacity to the grid when the base load is maxed (like during the day when air conditions are running) is by firing up natural gas turbines which cost about 7 times as much per unit of energy than coal-powered plants.
which introduces the idea that if the power companies move forward with their planning to charge peak hour rates – it’s going to be far more expensive to re-charge at peak times because the power companies will be passing on the higher costs from natural gas power generation to the people who want the power.
This is a key part of the envisioned “Smart Grid” – i.e. to be able to “load balance” and to be able to charge for peak hour usage to tamp down peak hour demand so that we don’t have to build more base load coal plants.
All to say – that plug-in electrics sound initially like very elegant solutions to the use of fossil fuels to power autos but the more you get into the details the more you realize that we’re still going to use fossil fuels to power cars – coal and natural gas and it just becomes a question as to whether the car burns fossil-fuels directly in an ICE or indirectly via the generation of electricity – either on-board as the Volt does or remote from the grid.
The power companies have been saying for some time that they have a concern with plug-ins using power at peak power times and if not other changes are made it will lead to the building of more base-load coal-power plants or more “peaker” natural gas turbine plants.
But again, when you add these “peaker” plants – it costs 7 times as much to generate electricity and I’m quite sure that that cost is going to be passed on to consumers either incorporated into your basic electric bill or via variable pricing where using power at peak periods is going to be more expensive.
When it comes to solar charging stations, I think it is better to connect the system to the grid than to build expensive energy strage systems.
By connecting to the grid, the utility company acts as your battery.
1. The cost is lower.
2. You give excess power not being used for charging vehicles to the utilities during peak daytime hours.
3. You get excess power from the grid at night for charging vehicles during non-peak hours.
This is the same reason residential solar works better with a grid connected system. While you are at work, your solar system sends excess power during peak hours to help power businesses….
What is evident not be forgotten. The automotive industry is developing and this is a good thing. Until these appearances we basically kept the oil market automotive brake on development. Now, when we had oil tycoons weakened, we begin to develop in the right direction. I hope in future to be able to live in communion with nature.
the defacto standard is this – people expect to be able to refuel their car anytime in the 24/7 cycle and for the refueling to take five minutes or so.
Service stations serve dozens of cars per hour so there are some pretty big challenges to plug-ins fitting into the current lifestyles and refueling scenarios.
This slims down the number of people who are ready, willing and able to make the plug-in jump.
I don’t know how big the solar panels would have to be on a WaWa to be able to fast-fuel dozens of plug-in at five minutes each but I suspect it’s a far reach though the roof area over the pumps and store would be substantial.
When you realize just how much most people will have to change their lifestyles to accommodate a plug-in – you start to appreciate that – for most people – it’s not a no-brainer step-up but rather a side-step that requires changes in the way one lives and does business.
How many folks are willing to …make this car their primary transportation – as opposed to a “street-cred” show car?
If you are the CEO of a car company like GM or FORD – you are paying attention to these issues and they will affect your willingness to bet the bank on plug-in cars.
We are just not there yet.
It is very exciting because we can almost taste the future but we’re just not there yet.
we literally don’t know how we’re going to refuel these cars – on a regular basis.
I often hear about solar power charging stations. If that means adding power storage st the site, it adds a lot more expense in setting up and maintaining the charge station. If instead the solar is grid connected, there isn’t any storage requirement. If we want some storage for grid peak-demand balancing, that does not need to be linked to car charging, except for the feed-good effect.