New legislation: Semi trucks a key to electrification?
The key to electrification, or just Congressional pork?
Maybe more focus should be put on electric pickup trucks as well?
If Sen. Debbie Stabenow’s Advanced Vehicle Technology Act of 2011 is approved by Congress a major focus of the legislation will be on the development of “scalable battery technologies that would allow large hauling trucks to run, eventually, on all electric drivetrains” according to the DetroitNews.
So, why are the best selling hybrid cars and most plug-in efforts focused on small cars?
I’ve long said that possibly the most important hybrid vehicle on the market today is the Chevy Silverado hybrid pickup truck. Ultimately, hybridizing pickup trucks would have a much bigger impact on US foreign oil consumption than small hybrids. Unfortunately, sticker shock has made hybrid pickup trucks almost non-existent, and one can only imagine that adding more batteries and a plug would result in even greater buyer apprehension, which is probably why automakers just aren’t going there yet.
Consequently, one would then also imagine that plug-in semi truck costs would be even more alarming. Of course, on the other hand, electrifying such vehicles would save massive amounts of fuel.
Still, is this legislation very realistic or is it just pie-in-sky pork barreling?
Numerous and recent battery studies have suggested that battery R&D is in need of years – more than a decade – of breakthroughs and refinements before becoming even relatively cost-effective compared to gasoline. Some very prominent researchers have even suggested that, inevitably, a move beyond lithium-ion will be required. As a result, the logic behind this legislation seems a little hard to swallow, at least at first glance.
Obviously, such legislation could help develop the battery industry in Stabenow’s home state of Michigan, and that could be a good a thing, a very good thing for the US auto industry in fact. Nevertheless, is rushing to build batteries that are essentially inefficient by nature in both design and production a sure path to success? Likewise, should the government drive such venture capitalism, or should venture capitalists?
I’m not certain, but if the biggest battery packs are the key to success, shouldn’t there also be more effort to electrify the light duty truck segment as well, even if just hybridized with lithium-ion batteries? Perhaps the current plug-in tax credit, for example, should be restructured into one credit for cars and one credit for trucks – say $5000 per car and $10000 per truck.
I mean, if semi-trucks offer the most battery bang for the buck, then don’t plug-in and/or hybrid pickup trucks offer more bang than small plug-ins and hybrids?
Then again, are plug-in tax credits for any vehicle, regardless of size, really the path forward, as questioned in Are tax credits the best path to auto electrification? Or is a Manhattan Project-like R&D effort into batteries all that really matters right now?
http://www.cngprices.com/
Anyone know how much it would cost to fill up a car or truck with CNG?
Larry,
I’m referring to smaller pickups specifically…
In the 18-wheel world, CNG prices should remain lower than Diesel thanks to the large reserves discovered in the US. Plus CNG is 100% American and will be less affected by OPEC production cuts and/or turmoil in oil producing countries. This makes CNG a viable option in my opinion.
The other savior may be algae-based bio-diesel. The growth rate of algae makes it possible for algae-based bio-diesel to be cost competitive with oil-based diesel, without ruining our food supply in the process….
for long hauls – big trucks are more efficient than smaller trucks I would think.
We have smaller trucks for local deliveries but when you’ve got to move warehouse stacks hundreds of miles – big is more efficient.
There are some who say that the way we have developed our distribution systems is inherently wasteful, in essence, that WalMart should not have a gazillion stores and get stuff from around the world to sell at it’s stores.
I don’t see that changing… and that means BIG trucks picking up BIG loads from port facilities and moving it to regional distribution warehouses.
There are folks who say that we should be using trains to do this – not trucks.
I think trains from ports to warehouses -yes.. but from warehouses to WalMarts, you need the big trucks because he rail system we have now days simply does not go to every place there are stores.
Note that even small stores like 7-11 and Subway get re-supplied from 18-wheelers who make the “rounds” …
trucking companies are very, very sensitive to transportation costs.
It can cost $1500 to fill up an 18-wheeler.
so I’m assuming the trucking industry has reached some level of optimization.
Natural Gas for trucks may sound like a good concept and it might be but natural gas is 1/2 as energy dense as diesel and in a natural-gas-powered scenario that same truck may cost $2000 or $3000 to fill up – and we’re going to feel that in the price of everything we buy from nail clippers to bannanas.
Heavy duty trucks?
When are we going to get smart and start making smaller trucks again???
Put this technology into smaller trucks, and you can make a difference today, instead of waiting for a miracle breakthrough for large trucks that is very unlikely to happen any time soon.
@dahcredyns:
Your comment regarding the legislation is certainly appropriate. When I used Google to search for the bill several different versions were found and amendments as you indicate are added frequently. I always try to be cautious when commenting on proposed legislation, LOL.
I do however, disagree with the concept of the legislation since I believe that CNG would be a much better choice for long haul trucking. It is available almost everywhere, burns clean, reasonably priced, and the technology is well understood. There are very few locations along the Interstate Highway system that don’t have CNG available. Some studies indicate that even if we do use CNG in the transportation sector, we should still have enough for about 50-75 years and that’s give today’s methods of recovery.
After that, I think electrification is the route to take.
Tom-
Regarding the legislation, I went with what the DetroitNew posted since they were able to discuss with Stabenow herself, the principal driver of the legislation, and since these bills are changed and updated constantly who knows what the final bill will be. Nonetheless, Stabenow said, “…..if our long-haul truckers have better options on batteries, that’s the way we really bring choice to consumers and bring prices down” regarding gas prices, and the DetroitNews called this long-haul aspect one of the “key components” to this legislation.
“but the battery to drive an 18-wheeler with a load – 500 miles – would have to have a humongous battery, no?”
You would think so. long term, this might make sense, but short term, i think something like natural gas would probably make more sense, especially since we’re talking long distance vehicles. for vehicles that drive only locally, hybrid technology definitely makes sense and could become cost-effective soon when part of a fleet. with a few battery breakthroughs, plug-ins might also work in this capacity. but, for long-haulers, it seems very premature to talk batteries.
“Why do we not have a rule that says if we need to add capacity to the grid – that it has to be renewable power sited within the medians and interchanges of the major highways?”
Larry, while Tom points out good problems, I think this is barking up the right tree. Maybe its not solar, at least not in all instances. Nevertheless, where are there possibilities for convergences in technologies and infrastructures? We need to think that way. That’s why I think we really need to honest and extremely comprehensive energy policy, which is why I’ve called for declaring war on foreign oil, probably coupled with a war against dirty energy, but a bit more long term. First, however, start with goals, then figure out the most expedient ways to get there with long term plans to make those ways more efficient and clean over time.
Good Question LarryG: “to the grid – that it has to be renewable power sited within the medians”.
Not a bad question LarryG but there are a couple of reasons I can think of off hand.
1. All of the dust and dirt from the roadways [tires, break dust, etc] would reduce the capacity of the panels quickly and they would require more frequent cleaning. I seem to remember reading somewhere it is being tried in Oregon I think but please don’t hold me to that statement.
2. In many areas of the country the median areas are being converted to actual roadways. Every time I go visit my sister in California, they seem to be in the process of adding more traffic lanes in the center median areas. Also in some areas they are using the space for light rail systems.
3. California utilities are presently leasing warehouse roofs for the installation of large scale commercial solar power systems. This last year over 300 megawatts of solar were installed in Southern California alone and we are just beginning to understand the true value of solar.
Anyway there is so much we could be doing. Streamlining trucks just seems like a no brainer to me. Hydraulic or electric hybrids for use in cities or local delivery trucks could cut fuel use. Even our light trucks duty pick-up trucks will someday probably have some form of hybrid technology [like Ford Hydraulic Hybrid]. Compressed Natural Gas [CNG] could certainly be used to reduce reliance on foreign oil in our trucking fleet.
All of these things however are just stop gap measures in my mind. In the end [long after I'm gone LOL] the only real clean source of power I am aware of is electric power. However, at the present time we aren’t using a very clean source of heat [coal] to produce it.
Have a great day LarryG.
” Well o.k. if we cover the median of our highways with solar panels…”
as a side question….. why is this not really something that could be done to reduce our dependence on coal?
Why do we not have a rule that says if we need to add capacity to the grid – that it has to be renewable power sited within the medians and interchanges of the major highways?
Locomotives are diesel-electric hybrids, right?
and some trucks: http://www.kenworth.com/2100_vir_t270.asp
but the battery to drive an 18-wheeler with a load – 500 miles – would have to have a humongous battery, no?
After I wrote the above posting I went searching with Google to read what this bill covers. It provides funds for American manufacturers to design, re-tool and build more fuel efficient vehicles. According to the bill it includes provisions for the funds to be used for midsized and heavy duty vehicles.
One of these days when we really start getting serious about energy efficiency and/or fuel economy; we will stop building trucks [and cars] that have grills or front ends that are as flat as a barn door. I have just started noticing a few trucks that have some streamlining on their trailers and that is a good thing. But come on – is that the limit of our creative thinkers in America? Also a couple of truck manufacturers are just now beginning to smooth out the lines of the trucks they manufacturer. But even these latest models are not what I would even consider to be streamlined or aerodynamic to improve fuel efficiency.
Just thought you might like to know.
Tom G.
Well o.k. if we cover the median of our highways with solar panels and batteries storage units maybe. Of course we would need to assign all trucks to a truck lane where they could get their juice from an overhead power line like the new high speed rail systems do.
Only then would electrifying our 18 wheeler fleet make any kind of sense. Electric and/or hydraulic hybrids like those used by UPS, FedEx and now under development for school buses work best when frequent starts and stops are made. There is very little to be gained when in steady state operation on the open highway.
Maybe what we should do is just make more use of our rail systems. You know, high speed rail, automated cargo sorting locations in strategic spots and only short haul local trucking.
The more I think about this, the more I agree that is must be some sort of government pork project for someone.
From what I’ve read, it isn’t sticker shock that’s stopping Semi’s from becoming electric, it’s the physics involved in bulk-hauling of any kind.
Apparently, an electric powertrain is great for jump-starting out of the gate, but when you tie 17 tons of material to it to haul, that changes the logistics entirely.
For bulk haulers of any kind, CNG is the presumed alternative to gas or diesel. Yes, it’s a fossil fuel. Yes, it’s a limited resource, blah, blah, blah.
Unfortunately, for now, it’s all we got if we want to swap out the petrol.
And don’t start up with me on that hydrogen bullshit…