Is Hyundai really going to take on the Toyota Prius?
Coming in both a hybrid and plug-in hybrid version?
Will another hybrid ever match Prius sales?
At the New York Auto Show, Hyundai announced that the Blue-Will concept will be headed for production. Unfortunately, no other details were provided. Nevertheless, InsideLine, for instance, is already calling the Blue-Will Hyundai’s Prius-fighter.
But is the Blue Will really a Prius-fighter? Will another hybrid ever match, or even top, Prius sales?
In its concept form, the Blue Will was a plug-in hybrid. Can any plug-in be a Toyota Prius fighter?
Soon, the Prius will be offered in 3 different sizes and at least two different powertrain options. Sure, one of them will be a plug-in hybrid, but the version that will rack up the most sales over the next decade will still be the conventional hybrid version. Wouldn’t any Prius-fighter; therefore, have to at least be offered in both conventional and plug-in hybrid versions?
Additionally, the Prius is primed for full electric and fuel cell electric versions in the future. Thus, any Prius-fighter has to be an extremely flexible platform.
Of course, maybe the Hyundai Blue-Will, or whatever name Hyundai eventually brands its “Prius-fighter” with, will be offered as both a non-plug-in hybrid and a plug-in hybrid. Otherwise, the Blue-Will is just a plug-in Prius fighter, not a Prius fighter.
One way or another, until another automaker comes close to matching Prius sales, we’re still just dealing with niche markets. Hopefully, Hyundai is committed to a legitimate “Prius-fighter” as some real competition is desperately needed in this space.
Some great points in there Jeff, but I’d make a few counter arguments. First, despite the “outdated NiMH battery” pack, the NiMH battery is still the most cost-effective option for hybrid cars today. Long term that will change, but Toyota was able to rack up some pretty impressive patents thanks to its willingness to accept the limitations of the NiMH pack on the way to better technologies. Besides, few in the battery space are predicting that the current generation of lithium-ion technologies are the future.
Likewise, the Sonata is superior to the Camry hybrid, for now, maybe. The Camry hybrid has been around for a long time now and is ready for the next gen HSD. I’ll bet the next gen Camry hybrid sees huge improvements. Besides, while the the Fusion hybrid, for instance, offers higher EPA numbers, in the real world Consumer Reports, for isntance, found very little difference in actual fuel economy, plus the Camry hybrid is cheaper ( I haven’t yet seen a Sonata/Camry hybrid comparison by a third party).
That being said, I do also consider Hyundai to be a real wild card in the auto industry and have very high expectations. I hope Hyundai lives up to the hype.
Tom, for now, it all comes down to battery size. Numerous studies have suggested that based on the battery technologies now available, a hybrid like the Prius offers the most bang for the buck in terms of reducing oil consumption and co2 emissions compared to plug-ins. likewise, if a plug is added, the best bang for the buck is still a small battery pack.
in my opinion toyota’s plug-in plans are just like the corolla and camry. sure they are a little boring, but they are reliable and cost-effective.
The only advantage I see to parallel hybrids is this. Using both the smaller electric motor and the ICE motor may be more cost effective than building one large electric motor with no transmission.
Don’t know, just guessing.
I forgot to mention Hydraulic Hybrid drives that several manufacturers seem to be working on. Since the accumulator acts like a battery, I wonder if they will be considered series or parallel hybrids?
LarryG said in part: “WHY is this connection NECESSARY to start with IF the car can operate in a SERIES ONLY mode?”.
That is a darn good question Larry.
I have often wondered why also. Maybe it was that at the time hybrid passenger cars were being developed the electric controllers, batteries, electric motors, and other components were not available or fully developed. Maybe it was because the engineers where just not sure that a series hybrid was better. Maybe having two possible drive modes just seemed better since if one failed the other could still get you home. Who knows maybe it had something to do with the Japanese cultural. I am just not all that great at reading tea leaves or automotive technical journals, LOL.
The way I view a parallel hybrids is that adding the additional drive train complexity is really not necessary given today’s technology.
A very simple series hybrid is like connecting a Yamaha or Honda 2000i [inverter style] portable generator to a motor controller and an electric motor. As the load on the electric motor increases the speed of the generator ICE increases. In essence the electric motor actually becomes the transmission. The only thing missing is a small battery pack to capture regenerative braking and to facilitate things like start/stop operation and accessory operation.
In a parallel hybrid arrangement you have the SAME thing PLUS you have physical gears that can also directly drive the vehicle through a transmission. To me this is a total waste to have two separate and unique drive trains AND a battery system.
As I have said before I am not an automotive engineer but when I look at the amount of energy it takes to get my butt from point A to B, I can’t see how the parallel hybrid can be more efficient than a series hybrid. I am still waiting for some automotive engineer to help us understand WHY the parallel hybrid is considered to be more efficient than a series hybrid.
Great questing Larry and I wished some automotive engineer would answer the question.
@usbseawolf2000 2
I did go read the provided link and thank you but… there is a but…..
and that is that the entire discussion is one that is focusing on the mechanics of connecting the ICE to the drivetrain in a parallel hybrid configuration.
And my assertion was to ask – WHY is this connection NECESSARY to start with IF the car can operate in a SERIES ONLY mode?
Why cannot a hybrid be a series-only configuration? What the flaw?
@usbseawolf2000
take the battery OUT of the equation and compare ONLY the parallel config verses the series config.
tell me WHY the ICE – NEEDS to be connected directly to the drivetrain.
That’s the essence of my question.
Talking about gears and clutches in the context of a series hybrid doesn’t really make sense to me because they are needed by BOTH parallel AND series for the connection between the ICE and the electric engine but in the Prius – you have the ADDITIONAL connection to the drivetrain – that the series-only does not have.
All things equal, I would rather purchase a Hyundai over the “equivalent” Toyota. Hyundai’s conventional engine and transmission technology literally trounces Toyota. I seriously looked at the Sonata hybrid, but decided to wait on making a purchase. Will probably purchase the new Accent. Toyota’s Camry hybrid is inferior to the Hyundai Sonata hybrid. Granted the Prius gets better mileage than the Sonata hybrid, but the two cars don’t directly compete. The upcoming Blue-Will looks as if it will be a direct competitor. As such, the car will likely have superior power and mileage ratings if the recent past is any indicator as Hyundai simply bests Toyota in nearly every conceivable way. Lower cost, more advanced engine and battery technology, better features, better warranty, higher horsepower and torque figures in a package that now rivals historic Toyota reliability. Not to mention the consistently high safety ratings Hyundai vehicles usually attain.
When Hyundai gets serious about a segment they decide to enter, they have gotten things right far more than they have gotten them wrong. The Genesis paved the way and now they released the Equus. The Sonata and Elantra are tearing up the sales charts. The Veloster and Accent are nearing release.
I await patiently for the Blue-Will. I am not even remotely interested in the Prius and its outdated NiMH battery pack that loses charge at a far higher rate than virtually any other battery chemistry.
To say that Hyundai can’t get the technology right is delusional. They brought us direct injection that works, unlike any of their Japanese competitors. They actually purchased gasoline direct injection from Mitsubishi and made it work, while Mitsubishi had nothing but trouble with the technology. Their 5.0 liter V8 is one of Ward’s ten best. They now have an 8 speed automatic transmission designed in house and their 6 speed is now standard across their entire line of vehicles. Where are Toyota’s and Honda’s 6 speed transmissions in their bread and butter cars, the Corolla and Civic? Hats off to Toyota in developing the first 8 speed automatic for their Lexus vehicles. However, Hyundai has also performed the same feat.
Even Ford and GM are putting better technology in their cars these days than Toyota. The lowly Fiesta has a dual clutch 6 speed for crying out loud while the Corolla has an outdated 4 speed. GM and Ford are putting direct injection into a number of their own powerplants also. Nothing as sophisticated as Hyundai’s twin scroll turbocharged direct injected 2 liter with an electronically activated waste gate actuator and a one piece cast stainless steel manifold/turbo housing. Still, better than anything Toyota is putting into their own cars.
Hyundai has a fire under their feet. I would be VERY nervous if I were Toyota. Hyundai is about to demolish the crown jewel in their entire automotive line up.
As I said, all else being equal, I would much rather own a Hyundai than a Toyota. Wouldn’t have said that 3 years ago, but am firm in that belief now after purchasing a V6 powered 2007 Santa Fe. From what I am observing, there are many others starting to come to the very same conclusion.
LarryG,
Make sure you really digest the Power Split Device and things should fall into place and make more sense.
http://prius.ecrostech.com/original/Understanding/PowerSplitDevice.htm
To answer your question Prius’ drivetrain is the union of the gas engine, generator and traction motor.
Traction motor can work alone powered by the battery (EV Mode). Both the gas engine and the traction motor can turn the wheels (Parallel Mode). Traction motor can turn the wheels and the gas engine turn the generator (Series Mode).
At any moment in time (when driving the Prius), both the Series and Parallel modes are mixed in infinite possible combination. Eg (10% series, 90% parallel on the highway) or (90% series, 10% parallel during hard acceleration from a stop).
Volt has similar setup using a planetary gearset (PSD) with 3 additional clutches. The clutches are used to engage and disengage the gas engine and two motors from the PSD. It is more complex mechanically.
Larry,
Just a few points to ponder.
Ultimately, the Volt does have a direct connection between the ICE and drive-train, it just uses 3 clutches and a planetary gearset to dissolve this connection, at much complexity compared to a pure series hybrid. Nevertheless, let’s say this is just temporary and future Voltecs will be even less complex.
Why is GM still playing around with more HSD or Prius-like plug-in drivetrains? While GM has been developing the Volt, it has also been refining its dual mode plug-in hybrid drive. Maybe it’s just for China. Maybe it’s just because the Volt’s technology doesn’t scale well – cost-effectively – towards much smaller and lighter vehicles, nor towards much heavier vehicles.
The HSD on the other hand fits in the Yaris, one of Toyota’s smallest and lightest vehicles. The HSD can be a pure hybrid drive, or a plug-in hybrid drive that utilizes different EV ranges. Additionally, the core of the HSD is also the key powertrain of Toyota’s pure electric vehicles and their fuel cell vehicles.
Toyota’s caution regarding plug-in hybrids or pure EVs has been regarding one and only one point: The batteries simply aren’t cost-effective. Without a massive change in consumer behavior, there isn’t one single study I’ve seen that counters Toyota’s contention. Ultimately, the drive train, or the differences in them, aren’t the critical factor. It’s the battery technology. There is no magic drivetrain that is going to resolve this battery cost-issue.
If you come up with a 500 mile, reliable battery all you really need is good software.
just because Prius is the first doesn’t mean that another car company can’t beat it in the future.
In order to beat Prius the car will need to
1. Have a mileage of over 50 mph
2. Flexible platform
And yes, a lot of hybrids are ugly. Dunno why that is but they are. I wouldn’t mind a stylish or luxury hybrid but not these weird looking designs.
Looking at the image above. I can tell that Hyundai is going great with their latest car design and the comfort it brings to the users. I I do believe that Hyundai can do it.
Thanks for the reference
Right – the main point here is that parallel hybrids CAN operate in series OR it CAN operate essentially as a conventional ICE-powered drive-train.
so unless I don’t understand – there MUST be a connection between the electric engine and the drive-train AND there MUST be a connection between the ICE an the drive-train – WHEREAS in a Pure series hybrid – there is no connection between the ICE and the drive-chain.
The question for me has to do with WHY a Prius-type parallel has the two-engine drive-train instead of why the Volt has which is a single engine to drive-train connection.
Long-question short – why does the Prius need to have a direct connection between the ICE and the drive-chain?
How is that “better” than just having the single connection between the electric and the drive-chain?
What Toyota built is a triumph of their company’s virtually unique capability among current car makers to put together a complex design and implement it as a mostly trouble-free reliable vehicle as compare to companies like GM who have a more problematic history of accomplishing that.
But something drove Toyota to believe that they needed the more complex design – but something also drove the folks at GM to believe that a series only hybrid could be successful.
As with things like 8 tracks, cassettes, and CD…. te technology world evolves (I think) towards the smaller and less complex (more elegant) form factors.
But I do very much enjoy listening to other folks discuss the pros and cons here.
LarryG,
Yes, Prius can run any combination of gas and electric. It has eCVT. Electricity to gas ratio depends on the speed of the generator (MG1).
Check out Graham Davies site for excellent explanation. http://prius.ecrostech.com/original/Understanding/Contents.htm
Hyundai Blue Drive has two motors and one clutch. When the clutch is engaged, it is a parallel. If it disengages, it is a series hybrid.
” It doesn’t have the power split device but it a clutch to change modes.”
what would be the difference between the two?
wouldn’t a computer still decide which one to run?
are you saying that Prius can run 50% electric an 50% ICE or any combination but that this care can only run 100% electric or 100% ICE?
Hyundai Blue Drive is a series-parallel hybrid like the Prius. It doesn’t have the power split device but it a clutch to change modes.
HBD uses traditional mechanical transmission to downsize the electric motors. This should cut cost but the need for a dedicated transmission and the use of Lithium HV battery increase cost.
I’m with Tom. I don’t know who is creating these super ugly concept cars and slapping a hybrid label on them – but like Tom, I’m more turned off than ever.
At least the Prius looks mostly normal thank goodness.
I think all these ugly hybrid cars is telling us something about who the marketers think their market is.
The other thing about the Prius is that it is ONE COMPLICATED piece of machinery that would never work without a computer.
And most of the car makers out there are not capable of making a RELIABLE complicated car.
GM has a dismal record of attempting to design cars with complex features and I suspect the Volt is a series in part because they did not want to tangle with a full-up parallel configuration.
The “mild” hybrids are bogus imitations in my view. I consider them Hybrid LITEs.
With the Prius even – I wonder about this.
For a parallel hybrid – why would you operate it in an ICE-only mode? Why is that not simply a conventional ICE-powered vehicle in that mode?
The question was this: “But is the Blue really a Prius-fighter? Will another hybrid ever match, or even top, Prius sales?”.
The answer is: Not only no but HE.. NO!
I have one Hyundai vehicle. It has been mostly trouble free and provides excellent mileage and handles well. So I like my Hyundai and would buy another one.
BUT I would NEVER buy the above pictures one. The front end looks like some obscured copy of a Mitsubishi or pregnant whale about to puke. I don’t care if it was the greatest hybrid in the world I won’t buy it AND
I challenge Hyundai to produce the survey data that shows this design was selected as the most desirable for the American market.
Ugly
Tom G.