Bob Lutz stands by the Chevrolet Volt
Bob Lutz's baby, the Chevrolet Volt at its concept debut
The Volt is the future
One of the most interesting characters in the auto industry, ever, is former GM vice chairman Bob Lutz. Love him or hate him he’s always candid, interesting and entertaining. And soon he’ll unload even more auto industry tales in a way only Lutz can in the book Car Guys vs Bean Counters: The Battle for the Soul of American Business.
MotorTrend’s Angus Mackenzie recently offered up a summary of the book, particularly as it relates to the Chevy Volt, and in a nutshell the Volt is the future, at least as far as Lutz is concerned.
“The skeptics, the pundits, the GM haters, and those who detest lithium-ion as a chemistry will all be dragged, however unwillingly, to the same conclusion,” Lutz writes. “Volt paved the way; Volt was the first with the extended-range EV concept; Volt demonstrated the will and the technological capability of General Motors. And to all the doubters, opponents, critics and skeptics… [including] Glenn Beck, I say: ‘Eat your hearts out. Volt is the future’.”
And Angus seems to agree, citing the fact that BMW recently bought a Chevy Volt and hired former lead engineer of the Volt team, Frank Weber.
Personally, I believe that calling the Volt “the future” is a bit of hyperbole, a very Lutz-ian habit. While, I have few doubts the Volt and the Voltecs powertrain will be part of the future, I believe pure hybrid and pure electric powertrains will be just as important, if not more important. Besides, it’ll probably be decades before one powertrain dominates the future as the ICE powertrain has dominated the last century, and there’ll be massive innovations, even multiple-changers during that time that could change everything.
For now the Volt is a great option for those absolutely committed to reducing their foreign oil footprint, but whom also want the convenience of ignoring range anxiety and are willing to pay a little extra for this capability.
Anyway, Car Guys vs Bean Counters: The Battle for the Soul of American Business, is due to be released June 9. I know I’ll be buying a copy.
Source: MotorTrend
I think the Leaf is just fine Larry, particularly long term. Yes, range probably needs to double and costs need to come down even further, but the Leaf and EVs offer significantly cheaper operating costs than other kinds of plug-ins and hybrids. Eventually, that will be the difference maker, but it could take more than a decade, possibly even two, before we get to that point.
Nevertheless, I think multiple powertrains will be around for many decades yet.
It’s hard to say if only one of these will survive in the long run.
Is this:
- Beta vs VHS?
- MAC vs. PC?
- Plasma vs LCD vs Rear Screen Projection?
Of those 3, only one of those battles had a single winner.
I personally am rooting for a technology with electric as the primary drive train due to the advantages of torque and durability of electric motors.
One particular thing I like about electric motors is how long they last. Even if the battery dies after 100,000 miles you can keep replacing the battery 7 or 8 times, and the electric motor will still be going strong.
As far as the most optimized application….
The Volt is basically version 1.0. The Prius is already version 3.0. The PIP is version 4.0.
When the Volt is on Version 3.0 let’s ask the same questions and see where we are…..
I see it more like I do 8-tracks/cassettes/walkmans/Ipods
or BetaMax/VMS/Blue-Ray/etc
or how what is the most optimized, most evolved technology.
The superior version will prevail… over the longer run.
an example.
The Nissan Leaf, in it’s current form, is not going to prevail as the best, most optimized technology even though it is very modern.
I am not so focused on the exact age of the technology in the Volt or Prius.
After all, the electric motor that is at the heart of both vehicles is hundreds of year old technology.
It’s not the age of the technology, it’s how it is used. I think the Prius and Volt are both using the technology that is best for which each vehicle was designed.
I’m glad we are seeing both technologies. One of the biggest problems the last 100 years is that we have had only one technology (ICE) and as a result we are totally dependent on foreign oil. Variety will help us to get off of foreign oil more quickly.
for myself, not “picky” but a desire for “clarity” with respect to what the Volt is an is not … and is it using outmoded technology inferior to the Prius OR is it using SUPERIOR technology compared to the Prius?
I’m still putzing around trying to better understand the two configurations.
We know for sure that the Telsa and Leaf ARE .. PURE Series configurations – right?
You can’t really call either one a “hybrid” since they only have one engine, right?
So let me get this straight….
The Volt, which is designed to run primarily as an electric vehicle, is not the most efficent vehicle when running as a hybrid (only when going over 70 mph after the battery is depleted.)
But… The Volt still gets about 40 mpg when running as a hybrid, so it’s not like it’s the end of the world or anything……
It goes back to that American need to have a car that does “everything”.
Aren’t we being just a little bit picky here????
Well, yes. That was probably chosen to avoid patent lawsuit from Toyota.
It may be justifiable for the Volt because the gas engine will only run when the battery runs low. It sucks for the long freedom drives especially with the required premium gas.
so the Volt regressed to an older, already discarded, less efficient configuration
The key difference is the input (gas engine) and output (wheels). If you look at the diagram again, they are reversed between the Prius and the Volt.
Volt’s set up is like the original TRW patent (expired) with 3 additional clutches.
Both Toyota and Ford hybrids reversed the input and output in the planetary gearset. That simple tweak resulted in big efficiency gain because the ICE rpm is how “disconnected” from the wheels. The higher the ICE rev (relative to car speed), the more electricity it will generate. The lower the ICE rev, the more direct mechanical power gets transmitted to the wheels.
The ratio of both mechanical and electrical power going out the wheels varies at any moment. The computer controls the blending 1,000 times a second (if I recall). This is why it is an electric transmission as it adjusts the torque with electricity rather than changing gear ratio. It was a totally new revolutionary concept. The best of all, it reduced a lot of mechanical complexity along with legacy components (starter, alternator, belts, clutches, etc..).
yeah I’ve seen this but I’m not smart enough to see how the same graphic means different things to Prius and Volt.
I don’t see what is different.
This shows how the engines are connected differently to the wheels in Prius and Volt.
http://image.motortrend.com/f/34803309+w750/volt-v-prius-technologue-illustration.jpg
I wouldn’t say it is a copy. There are differences on how the ICE and two e-motors are hooked up to a planetary gearset in the Volt. On top of that, Volt has 3 clutches so the ICE can completely disconnect from the wheels. The advantage is EV speed up to 100 MPH but the disadvantage is the additional complexity.
Prius can go EV (with ICE rpm @ 0) up to 62 mph. Above that speed, the ICE will need to spin (doesn’t have to use gas). Due to wind resistance, the cost/weight of the battery and the time needed to charge, high speed (long range) driving is best to leave it to the gas engine. From that point of view, it does make sense to keep it simple (without any clutch).
So the Volt is essentially the same as a Prius? The Volt just copied the Prius technology?
LarryG,
That fourth state exactly describes how Prius operates. Prius’ gas engine never turns the wheels directly.
All 3 engines (ICE and two e-motors) need to co-operate together to turn the wheels.
” The fourth and controversial state commences when the vehicle reaches speeds of 70 mph while in extended range mode.
As in EV mode the ring gear is decoupled from the case by the clutch and the smaller electric motor is once again allowed to operate in parallel with the large motor, increasing the system’s efficiency. The difference here is that the smaller motor is still being turned by the engine and not electricity. Thus the engine becomes coupled with both electric motors and all three work together to turn the driveshaft. Thus the gas engine participates in turning the wheels mechanically although indirectly. The generator is decoupled from the ring gear again when speeds drop back below 70 mph.
Thus although the engine generator [the ICE] can participate in mechanically driving the wheels it never does so directly or in isolation, at all points in time the large electric motor is the main driver of the wheels.”
http://gm-volt.com/2010/10/12/chevrolet-volt-electric-drive-propulsion-system-unveiled/
Now… this is NOT what the Toyota Prius is doing.
Second – this IS a GENUINE INNOVATION in the evolving technology of hybrids.
third – it MAY WELL not ultimately become the prevailing technology but it has most certainly advanced the body of knowledge.
The basic premise I see expressed here sometimes is that the Prius has already developed the ultimate technology and that what GM has done is a worthless PR effort.
I do not think this is the reality.
Prius advanced the technology but so has GM – no matter how much you might dislike GM or it’s leadership.
I could well be that the GM innovation will ultimately fail and that the Prius technology will become the de facto standard.
But I think the reverse is just as likely also.
At this point IMHO – both companies have contributed toward advancing the technologies.
Name another automaker – in the world – he is next to Toyota in actually bringing to market – a real car with real hybrid innovations and not copying others.
Name One. Not concept cars. Not cars “we plan”… but cars you can buy.
“Ultimately, this all comes down to people’s obsession with labels. If we didn’t insist on categorizing everything, it’s likely none of this would have ever come up because in the end it only matters if the system works.”
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/06/30/repeat-after-us-the-chevrolet-volts-gas-engine-does-not-drive/
The key phrases being…
“While in this series mode”
and
“at higher speeds”
Series mode means that the battery SOC has already been depleted down to 30% and the generator is running to charge the battery. This would never occur during the first 40 miles when running strictly off the battery.
Chevy determined that at higher speeds, when the generator is already running to charge the battery, the Volt would use less gasoline if the generator was also engaged to the drive train.
rom wiki: “…While in this series mode at higher speeds and loads, (typically above 30 miles per hour (48 km/h) and/or under hard acceleration) the gasoline engine can engage mechanically to the output from the transmission and assist both electric motors to drive the wheels, hence the Volt can also operate as a power-split or series-parallel hybrid when additional power is required.”
I stand corrected.
Larry, even GM has admitted to such a link, although it only occurs at high speeds. The fact is to avoid the link most of the time, GM had to add complexity in terms of 3 clutches and a planetary gearset. It’s not just a simple connection between the ICE and the battery. That’s simply a fact that, again, even GM has admitted.
I think seawolf has provide links in the past, but here’s one i’ve cited in the past that provides a pretty good explanation in my opinion. http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/volt/2011/how-the-2011-chevrolet-volt-works.html
I’m not arguing that makes the Volt better or worse than the HSD, but the Volt is not a pure series hybrid. In fact, GM doesn’t even like the term series hybrid which is why they have preferred range extended EV. Voltecs are a unique powertrain that functions much like a series hybrid, a little like a parallel hybrid.
is the Volt a pure series hybrid? If it is not, let’s see some links ….
my understanding is that the Volt has NO connection between the ICE and the drivetrain and unless I see some credible info to the contrary – I’m calling an blather alert.
Let’s get this squared away
I agree, Smurf. Anybody following the Volt story knows the Volt has been around longer than President Obama. However, there have been some that have suggested that the plug-in tax credit was largely written with the Volt in my mind. However, that would be a criticism to take up with the Democratic Congress at the end of the Bush era, not with Obama.
Larry-
Here’s the way Bob Lutz told me the story first hand. He went to Jon Lauckner and told him that GM needed to build a new electric car to counter both the Prius and the negative publicity regarding the who killed the electric car movie, especially and particularly considering the hype around the tesla roadster. lauckner talked lutz out of the pure EV idea because of range anxiety and the massive amount of money lost on the previous EV efforts, the result was the Volt. ultimately, bob lutz was the biggest driver behind the Volt and i don’t think that’s debatable. lauckner was hugely important, but without lutz i don’t think the volt idea moves forward, at least not as early as it did.
finally, most in the automotive space are now calling the volt a plug-in series/parallel hybrid. the volt is not a pure series hybrid. that doesn’t necessarily mean the volt is better or worse, but it is what it is.
in my opinion, from a purely marketing perspective, the volt is one of the greatest concepts ever. function like a an EV almost all the time, but with the ability to fall back on gasoline for added range when needed. but in terms of bang for the buck, cost-effectiveness is a very real question. numerous studies so far, based on today’s battery capabilities, have demonstrated that in terms of overall bang for buck basic hybrids like the prius still offer the most compelling path to reducing oil consumption and co2 emissions. if you plug-in, the smallest battery pack possible offers the most cost-effectiveness, especially if it could be a pure EV.
ultimately, the problem with all plug-in vehicles is the battery. no powertrain is going to somehow make that disappear. as battery technologies evolve, those evolutions could favor the Volt, although i believe the HSD will be able to also work any battery breakthrough into its configuration.
in truth, i think the most interesting Volt aspect relates to fuel cells. EnerFuel took a Volt like powertrain and replaced a huge chunk of the battery with a very small fuel cell and gas-to-hydrogen reformatter. today, Enerfuel claims such a powertrain is cheaper than the 40 mile EV Volt although overall range is less than the Volt. interestingly, GM’s latest fuel cell technologies are supposed to integrate into the Volt platform – at least that was the plan before the new GM.
consequently, in my opinion, the Volt gives GM a solid powertrain to challenge the HSD into the future, but i don’t think the Volt will dominate the HSD.
LarryG,
Volt is not a pure series hybrid. The ICE can connect to the wheels (there are 3 clutches), hence it is also a parallel hybrid. The reason why the Volt’s ICE needs to disconnect itself from the wheels is so it can reach the top speed only with the electric motor.
Prius’ ICE stays connected (lacks clutch) to the wheels but it stays at 0 RPM under 62 MPH. Above 62 MPH, the ICE needs to spin in order to prevent the generator from overspeeding. A clutch can be added so the ICE disconnects from the PSD but it will add complexity and cost.
Speed above 55 MPH reduces EV range greatly so it does make sense to use gasoline at high speed / long range. Battery is great for lower speed city driving when the ICE is least efficient.
Series hybrid can be more efficient but lacks in performance. For example, Volt has a 76hp ICE with a generator (76hp?) and 149hp traction motor. The combined output is 149hp. There are a lot of redundancy and it adds weight.
For parallel hybrid like Honda Insight, you can add electric motor 13hp plus ICE 98hp to get the combined 110hp.
Prius is a mixture of both series and parallel. It has the efficiency of a series hybrid yet also retain (or beat) the performance benefit of a parallel. Both the Gen2 Prius and Gen2 Insight has the same 110hp combined power. Despite being heavier and bigger, Gen2 Prius is faster and has higher MPG.
well.. name another Hybrid – like the Volt.
Isn’t it the only ICE-powered Series Only Hybrid?
does that not count as a legitimate innovation?
“Volt paved the way…”?
Uhh, I don’t think so, Bobby boy…
Larry,
I continue to be a proponent of the series hybrid for one main reason:
The drive train is electric.
An electric drive train offers so much more than an ICE drive train. It is more efficient, more durable, requires less maintenance, and does not require 3000 RPM to reach maximum torque.
I think using an ICE engine to generate electricity is a much better use.
I still believe, as I did when the Volt was first announced, that this series hybrid design offers significant flexibility of battery, generator, and fuel options. The Chevy Volt package of a 40 mile battery and gasoline powered generator, is one of many possible configurations. We have to start somewhere, and Chevy chose this particular combination as a “proof of concept”.
We are still only a couple of months into what could be a revolution within the auto industry….
Lutz may or may not be a jerk but he did not design or build the Volt – others did.
And the Volt – all marketing aside – is a series hybrid that does not need a battery to operate.
You may not like Lutz or GM but the Volt is a legitimate innovation that may well be a forerunner of future evolutions.
The question for me – remains – why – in a Hybrid – does the ICE engine need to be connected to the driveline ?
Why does the Prius directly connect the ICE to the drivetrain – and WHY did GM choose to not do so?
Or let’s ask a more definitive but subjective question.
Why will the series configuration of the Volt be discarded and the Prius-type parallel configuration be the ultimate winner? ( I personally don’t think so – but I ask the question to understand others viewpoints).
I think it is a shame how the Chevy Volt has gotten caught up in the whole political debate.
This is the first time ever where I have seen opposing “political” views on an American made car.
Somehow the far right has linked the success of the Volt to the success of Obama, and that is something they just can not tolerate.
My conservatives friends only know two things about the Volt.
1. It is made by Government Motors who got bailed out by Obama
2. It qualifies for Obama’s $7500 tax break
I wonder where they got those ideas from?
Is there any wonder why Lutz is responding directly to folks like Glenn Beck?
You’d have to pay me to read it. That guy is a class A jerk. He’s a car salesman. Anything he can make a commission on is the best thing ever invented at that time. If I owned a bird it would be offended if I lined its cage with that crap.