62 mph in 4 secs, drag-racing 12,000 pounds up a mountain, or 60 mpg?
Utterly senseless?
Will fuel economy ever be cool?
MotorTrend is salivating over the new ABT-Sportsline modified Audi TT-RS today. With specs like 0 – 62 in 4 seconds and a top speed of 181 mph, what gear head wouldn’t act as if his bell had just been wrung?
Yet, if all the effort put into achieving such power had been put into achieving fuel economy, 60 mpg would already be an after-thought.
What is it about power – mostly useless power – that is so Pavlovianly-enticing?
Unfortunately, it isn’t just 0 – 60 times that so compel. For instance, what percent of pickup truck drivers need a truck that can fly up a mountain towing 12,000 pounds? What percent of pickup truck owners ever tow anything? Would the average American contractor go out of business without the ability to drag-race 12,000 pounds up a mountain?
I don’t know, but the Ford F-Series recently topped 50,000 units sold in one month – the first time in over 2 years – while averaging well under 20 mpg. On the other hand, the 50 mpg Toyota Prius sold about 12,000 units.
How can that be acceptable in today’s world? Such poor fuel economy has done more good for America than harm? Seriously? Honestly, I don’t know, but I very much doubt that such an argument can be made. Yet, the government provides an unlimited amount of small business tax credits for such vehicles as it doles tens of billions in loans, grants and tax credits for more fuel efficient vehicles, particularly plug-in vehicles the size of a Prius.
But, can you really play it both ways?
More important, while a 70 mpg plug-in Prius sounds great, as does a Nissan Leaf with 100 miles of EV range, a 40 mpg F 150 would have far more impact reducing foreign oil dependence. Forget $7500 tax credits for the Chevy Volt. $7500 for a Chevy Silverado hybrid could actually achieve real change this decade.
Nevertheless, will it ever be cooler to average 60 mpg versus hitting 62 mph in 4 seconds?
well I still make the point that if ANY manufacturer – Toyota, GM, any manufacturer made a pickup that got 40 mpg, it would sell good.
and I presume that if it could be done – it would have…
Toyota could challenge the F150 no doubt if they put out a Tundra that got 39 mpg, eh?
I agree with your consumption argument. You can be very green and own a pickup, etc., far more green than someone with a hybrid.
My primary point is that much better gas mileage is possible for the entire fleet of American vehicles, but automakers have to be forced to think long term as do consumers, whom also have to be a little more rational in their expectations and perceptions of their vehicles.
If we think a little more collectively, what can be achieved is really quite spectacular. The ability to significantly affect the world is within reach and cost-effective. Too bad we probably won’t take advantage.
The Toyota T-100 pickup in a 4 cylinder manual stick version gets 30 mpg.
The Ford Ranger (made my Mazda I believe) gets 25 mpg. The Toyota Tacaoma 4 banger gets 22.
These seem like reasonable compromises to me.
I still think at the end of the day – it’s not what you drive – it’s how much fuel you use.
If you are a frugal person and carpool to work – you can have that pickup and still be “greener” that the guy that drives a Prius solo to work.
or if you choose to live 10 miles from work rather than 50 miles – then again – a pickup is not going to be a deal-breaker in terms of overall fuel consumption.
I don’t think it’s about what you buy or what you drive – but how much you consume.
Hybrids are great technology but they are still not ready for everyone.
Ford says that they will produce a Hybrid TransVan. That same vehicle could easily be a pickup – right?
Considering that cars now make up a majority of sales these days, I’m sure that they do make up more mileage, but it’s typically significantly more efficient mileage. A camry can be more than twice as efficient as many trucks. So trucks are burning a lot more fuel per vehicle.
Toyota has been toying with the idea of hybrid trucks for many years now, but I think they know that most consumers simply won’t pay the premium, and they probably won’t without somehow signficantly changing consumer psychology. I really would love to see auotmakers try to become consumer therapists, but they seem to have a vested interest in not doing this. Anyway, a Toyota hybrid truck is inevitable and they’ve announced they will build them, but they have not given a clear time line.
Nevertheless, it would seem that regulation or a gas tax would be required for any serious hybridization effort in the truck space. Fortunately, for consumers that might be OK, at least according to the latest research. Consumers will pay more up front for more fuel efficient trucks, but they’ll save enough money on fuel to more than offset the upfront costs – including the extra interest on larger loans. So, such a regulation shouldn’t really hurt consumers.
But I bet that profit margins aren’t as big, and that seems to be the rub to me, especially for Big 3 automakers. They don’t just sell more trucks, they sell more fuel inefficient trucks. CAFE ratings for just light duty trucks still puts US automakers towards the bottom. Ford is 8, Chrysler is 10 and GM is 14.
If what you say is true Dach – Toyota could make a hybrid Tacoma that would suit the folks you’re talking about just fine.
but part of this is one person deciding what others need or should want.
Like deciding what kind of MP3 Player or phone they should have.
If people buy a pickup but they only put 5000 miles a year on it – only using it when they need to haul or they bike to work or have a commuter car then are they not allowed to have a pickup if they want?
The guy that drives a 17mpg 100 miles round-trip to/from work every day is not likely what most do.
If a guy lives 10 miles from his job and can only afford one vehicle and needs a pickup sometimes.. he’s going to get a pickup…
but someone who lives 50 miles away and needs a pickup is going to think twice about driving it every day 100 miles round trip.
The more relevant data is not how many pickups sell…..
nope.
it’s what the corporate fuel economy average is – for the companies that sell pickups.
or this.. how many miles get put on pickups verses how many miles get put on other types of vehicles.
I-95 in the Washington Area is not at all predominately pickups.
Yes there are some but the vast, vast majority are cars… and many, many of them are plain ordinary plain-jane econoboxes like Camary’s and the like.
We have a pickup – but it’s a 2003 and it has barely 30,000 miles on it.
My Father-in-law has one older than that – a 2000 model with even less miles on it.
They are useful vehicles. I don’t haul 12,000lb loads but I used to haul a 1000 lb camper on it and now it hauls trash to the dump and topsoil and landscape timbers, deck boards, etc from Home Depot, etc.
so this is why I wonder what how the corporate average fuel economy would break down for each manufacturer.
I’m betting that even though more pickups are sold that by far the most mileage is put on the cars.
Actually, Larry, there are a mess of pickup trucks here in LA. They are very popular, and while people might need them to haul stuff, I’d bet very few need 12,000 pounds, or even 5000 pounds of towing power. I know a number of women whom drive big pickups purely because they feel empowered in such vehicles. I’d bet a good percent of truck owners are also psychologically empowered by trucks.
The problem with hybrid trucks, on the other hand, especially if full truck functionality is required, is the much higher hybrid costs compared to something like a Prius.
Now, if the requirements for producing a truck were not so high, then prices could be reduced, but ever more power is the usual requirement for truck upgrades. Even so, however, if hybrid trucks, such as the Silverado hybrid, qualified for the same kind of tax credit as the Volt, then it would be more cost-effective than the Volt compared to conventional vehicles. Roughly payback could be achieved in around 5 years or little less on average, and if scale could bring hybrid costs down, as it has for the Prius, then over time these trucks would become more competitive, but competitive enough to compete without a tax credit? I doubt it. Here something like CAFE does seem a requirement.
Nevertheless, such trucks still wouldn’t achieve 40 mpgs. That requires, I think, a different mindset from consumers. Both GM and Toyota, for instance, have been playing around with hybrid concepts that are becoming more like crossover trucks. Such trucks would still let owners haul quite a lot of stuff, but they won’t tow your 5th wheeler. Unfortunately, such vehicles don’t seem truck enough – tough enough.
Likewise, I think it quite inefficient that someone own a 17 mpg vehicle so they can use the functionality only such a truck can provide once or twice a year, or every other year. Moreover, I bet even those that regularly haul and tow with their truck still use far less capability than the truck provides. We need more rationality in the truck space. It’s trucks that harm US fuel economy the most.
If you hit the RV campgrounds out west, you’ll see a plethora of pickups hauling 12,000 lb loads.
If you go to any average-sized town in the less urbanized coastal areas, you’ll see that pickups are used heavily to transport everything from mulch to furniture.
And you’ll see not only Ford F-150’s but you’ll see Toyota Tundras and Toyota Tacomas (which do get decent mileage).
You’ll also find in many other countries a large percent of pickups though usually the smaller versions – but for the same reason – the ability to haul stuff you would not want to haul in a trunk or passenger compartment.
One of the more popular versions in the US now days is the 4-door pickup with a tonneau cover.
Many folks don’t dislike MPG – they like it and want more of it but they are not willing to give up everything else including functionality and flexibility just to get MPG.
I don’t think this is a bias against MPG but rather a bias against sacrificing everything else JUST to get MPG.
If you live in an urban area – you probably won’t see as many pickups and actually wonder why folks would buy the anyhow but if you live in small-town America, half the people have pickups and if you take a look at the beds of them – they are well used.
I think if a 4-door pickup was offered by anyone that got 40mpg it would sell extremely well.
If someone sold a pickup that got 40 mpg and could haul a 5th wheeler, it would become the de-facto standard overnight and if it were a Toyota or HORRORS and GM – Ford’s F150 would be toppled from number 1 status in a heartbeat.
Tell me why Toyota has chosen NOT to introduce a REAL hybrid truck – the equivalent of a Prius?
If such a truck came on the market, it could be a game changer.
right?