Chinese plugs-ins: What about the coal?
Are coal-powered EVs right for China?There is a big move afoot in China to quickly move it's developing auto industry from today's petroleum-guzzling technologies to battery powered technologies. Yet, not everyone in China agrees that's a good idea.
Because China derives 83 percent of it's electricity from coal, Huang Xiangdong, vice president of Guangzhou Automobile Group Corp., a major Chinese carmaker that has ventures with Honda Motor Co. and other global players, according to the DetroitNews, believes the move to plug-ins is premature.
Because of this reliance upon coal, according to Xiangdong, "battery electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids do not save more energy than conventional cars on a well-to-wheel analysis," said Huang. "We think in China it's not the right time to promote pure electric vehicles."
Labels: China, electric cars, plug-in hybrid vehicles
posted by Dahcredyns at
8:25 AM
10 Comments:
I would love to see that chinese wheel to wheel analysis.
The last study you've highlighted that looked at the impact of electric grid powered EV's, the CO2 produced by the current US electric grid when used to run the Volt equated to about 50 MPG. Of course that numbers varies by local conditions, such that in CA the CO2 production would equate to a higher MPG, and if a particular customer had a solar panel installation it would be higher still, etc.
Am I remembering correctly?
that sounds about right, although I'm also going just on memory.
the thing about China is that it's based on much dirtier coal technology than what is used in the US. even in the US some coal powered plants are much dirtier than others.
in china, from what i've read, the emissions from each coal plant are significantly higher than in the US. the whole coal industry, in all aspects, is much less efficient and much more dirty than is our industry.
i know toyota did some emissions studies back a few years on Chinese plug-in and the CO2 story was scary.
last thing I heard - the wheel-to-wheel is coal-powered was not particularly good.
But if we're gonna judge China then we should use the same criteria for us.
if "our" "answer" is not coal but solar panels then why not China also?
the other thing that gets my attention is that the MIDDLE CLASS in China numbers about 300 million people.
Walmart, McDonalds, KFC, etc all caught on to this some time ago.
another thing i wonder about china is their grid. how possible is the 'off-peak' possibility, for instance?
and, in terms of coal versus solar power, larry, the Obama administration made deals with the coal industry if they supported his cap and trade plan.
our long term plan might be solar-powered plug-ins, but in the short term, the administration is prepared to accept coal-powered plug-ins. of course, however, those plug-ins would be powered by coal plants that would eventually have to meet much higher emission's requirements.
i doubt china is prepared to be as aggressive on emissions.
also, larry, can you elaborate on your middle class angle? do you mean chinese consumers will want 'cheap' solutions?
I am not sure if I posted this link before or not but it might just be what you are looking for. The title of the article is: "Greenhouse gas emissions – Electric vs Gasoline cars."
Here is the link:
http://energy.typepad.com/the-energy-blog/
I believe it is the second article down from the top of the page.
Let us not forget that China just took over the title of the world leader in installed wind turbine generation capacity. Also they are quickly becoming the number 1 manufacturer of solar PV panels and their panels are UL approved and manufactured in ISO 9001 approved factories. They are also just as efficient and have the same 25 year warranties as any other manufacturer. They are of course from 25-50% less expensive than anything we make. I hate to say this but unless we get off our butts they will become energy independent long before we do and they might even be cleaner in the end. According to some reports they are currently outspending us by about 4:1. Lots of articles about this on Renewable Energy World . com.
Enjoy
Tom G.
I think I mis-spoke. China is not number one but about number 3 or 4 depending on who and what you read. Here is one example from Wikipedia.
"Current trends suggest an actual installed capacity near 20 GW by 2010, with China shortly thereafter pursuing the United States for the world wind power lead.[63]"
Sorry for the bad info.
Tom G.
Dahcredyns:
Was doing my usual read of MIT documents and came across this data re' hybrids. Here is the link and I hope you enjoy the information.
Title of report is:
Prospects for Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles in the United States and Japan: A General Equilibrium Analysis
http://web.mit.edu/sloan-auto-lab/research/beforeh2/files/JP_Report%20172_Karplus%20etal_w.cover_FINAL.pdf
Hope you enjoy the article.
Tom G.
Thanks for the links, Tom.
Read the MIT study in the past, but I skimmed again.
Seems to really suggest, as have many proponents, that only government policy can make plug-ins a reality. Even then mass adoption is still decades away.
But would that be wise?
For instance, the study also demonstrates the need for flexible government policies on this issue, in my opinion.
For example, if algae-based biofuels were to become cost-competitive, the need for plug-in vehicles becomes far less necessary. In fact, they just might not be able to compete. You could also add hydrogen to that mix as well I suppose.
Technology has shown again and again that the early bird, particularly in terms of investing, does not always get the worm. Too often, being too early to the game - before a technology has truly matured - can be a very costly mistake.
Again, all this seems to support my overall opinion, which is that less focus should be put on plug-ins, and more focus on conventional hybrids.
Likewise, with solar power, etc., I wish far more focus were put on distributed power. Forget solar farms in the desert, at least in terms of massive taxpayer funding. Instead, let's let ever homeowner, especially where very sunny, enjoy money-earning solar installations. For once, let average American tax payers enjoy the full benefits of government subsidies by making it too good to pass up.
Think of all the contractors - jobs - that would be needed to make just every LA home a solar-powered home.
But I guess that just isn't an efficient way to develop corporate profits for corporate lobbying of Washington?
The green mantra is think local. So why don't we take this approach on energy? For instance, let's prove the viability of solar power on the roof of every home in the Southwest before spending a few trillion on a desert solar farm and new power grid?
Anyway, back to hybrids.
According to studies, most fuel savings in plug-in hybrids still comes from conventional hybrid mode. Moreover, hybrids are fuel independent, so they can more efficiently burn algae-based fuels, so even if such bifuels become viable, investing in hybrids in the interim isn't so wasteful.
Likewise, if battery technologies do evolve faster or better than many predict, hybrids like the Prius can quite easily be converted into plug-in hybrids, so conventional hybrids can provide great impact today, while offering great legacy possibilities for tomorrow.
Along those lines, Toyota could be more than 30 percent hybrid by 2020, and well over 50 percent hybrid by 2030, in addition to probably matching any US automakers plug-in production.
Too often America talks about what it could do, what it will eventually do, instead of just doing what we should be doing today.
We should be focused on one thing, in my opinion, ending foreign oil dependence as quickly as possible, with a mandate that any new energies must also lead to lower emissions. But make the focus energy independence, not global warming.
Ultimately, if you are going to lead America with carrots, at least make sure its a carrot that Americans want to bite.
I thought you might find the information interesting even if it was a review LOL.
First a couple of words about solar and distributed generation. If everyone knew just how vulnerable the grids is, they would be demanding much more distributed generation. And of course would be installing solar PV.
In the report I found the information about emission levels and how that affects implementation of hybrid technology interesting. Since Cap & Trade and a VAT might become a reality in just the next year or two, I see significant changes in the road map implementation schedule coming. Our government under the current administration seems to be working a warp speed.
Have a great day and I will always be on the lookout for items of interest for your blog.
Tom G.
Thanks, and you have a great day as well, Tom.
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