Lutz: GM to continue to build money-losing hybrids
Purely about CAFEGM will continue to build money-losing hybrid vehicles, but only because of CAFE requirements, according to GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz. And, to make up for the losses GM will have to increase the prices on the rest of their vehicles.
Fortunately, since GM sold only 800 hybrids in January, they won't have too many losses to make up.
Ultimately, Lutz believes hybrids might one day make up 10 percent of the total US fleet, but only because of fuel economy regulations - apparently future gas prices will be insignificant in terms of creating hybrid demand, at least according to Lutz.
For comparison, Toyota sold more than 12,000 hybrids in January. Likewise, Toyota has stated that it intends to be 30 percent hybrid by 2020.
Labels: GM, Hybrid Vehicles, toyota
posted by Dahcredyns at
6:36 AM
19 Comments:
just curious - is Toyota ...ALSO losing money on hybrids and counting on other vehicles to make up the loss?
sounds like a losing proposition to me...
second question -
The ICE engine used in hybrids - is it an off-shelf existing engine or is it specially designed to mate with an electric engine?
What I'm getting at... is this - will it be possible that hybrids will get cheaper in the future from developing a special ICE engine for hybrid use?
double triple bonus - all things considered... does a hybrid get better mileage because it is a hybrid or because other things like regenerative braking are used?
In other words, if you take an ordinary conventional-powered ICE-powered vehicles, could regenerative breaking be installed on that car and the power used to drive belts and other equipment that normally is parasitic of ICE power output? ( belts, pumps, etc all steal power from ICE engines - right?)
GM still hasn't made the effort to find out if hybrids can turn a profit in my opinion.
GM should try to put the hybrid systems in a "car", instead of full-sized SUV's and see if they can turn a profit on these vehicles....
GM might have a new CEO, but it is still being run by a bunch of old men who are set in their ways....
that was really an important observation Smurf.
do we know why GM does not make a Prius/Camry/Honda competitor?
I'm starting to smell a rat here.
If GM was truly serious about Hybrids - what is everybody and their dog making small hybrids and not GM?
I realize that I'm probably a beat or two behind what everyone else already knows....
regarding toyota hybrid profitability, no one really knows for sure, as toyota doesn't release the info.
some have suggested toyota's hybrids are already profitable. others have claimed that toyota's hybrids are just starting to become profitable. toyota has claimed that by 2020 they believe profitability will be the same for hybrids as conventional vehicles.
in terms of the ice. i'm not completely certain. new engines have been developed for use in hybrids, but not just for hybrids. of course, they do tweak the engines for hybrids to run on a different cycle.
however, new electric motors, for instance, are being developed just for hybrids, and there are new hybrid-only developments occurring in academia, so the kind of hybrid-specific development you are suggesting is beginning to happen.
finally, if you can't store the regenerative braking energy somewhere, then it offers little. that's one of the main reasons for the battery pack.
well, gm hasn't been able to turn a profit on small cars in the past, so small hybrids are even more problematic.
moreover, it probably takes a million vehicle sales or so before profitability is even possible in the hybrid space. that requires a big commitment.
why do it if you are GM and for decades most of your profits come from large vehicles?
for the last several decades, gm has not been very forward thinking. many analysts have criticized them as being a very quarter-to-quarter company. quarterly financial statements, not long term planning, has driven GM for a very long time.
ironically, a number of high level gm execs, tom stephens most recently, have stated that GM has forecasted another gas crunch once the world economy gets back on track that will be more severe than in 2008.
yet, i still don't see their product plans matching the ramifications of such a gas crunch.
I think we are going to have to rely on Ford to carry the hybrid flag for America......
it certainly appears that way.
hopefully others inside GM aren't as Lutzian in their thinking.
This is a bit off topic but....
Why is 2.4 L the smallest engine made by GM in today's American cars?
I drove a BMW 320i in Germany back in 1987. The 2.0L engine in that car was extremely fast (gave me a top cruising speed of 110 mph on the autobahn) and got better gas mileage than any American car with a 2.4L engine....
Why don't American car companies make small engines?
they are starting to downsize.
ultimately, i guess they've focused on big because its sold well and been profitable.
" finally, if you can't store the regenerative braking energy somewhere, then it offers little. that's one of the main reasons for the battery pack."
the alternator on a conventional ICE car uses the engine to power electric devices though... including recharging the battery.
If you had an ICE car that did not need an alternator but instead scavenged electricity from the regenerative braking..then you'd gain gas mileage without it having to be a hybrid...
but as it is right now.. the regenerative braking is only useful when part of a hybrid.
i'm sure there are ways to capture some of the energy, but I still don't think you'd be on par with the energy capture and storage of a full hybrid.
but no reason to not utilize the innovations that were first introduced by hybrids either.
I'm convinced that Hybrids are here to stay... and I'm also convince that we're going to see more and more optimization of all aspects of hybrid technology so that the price keeps coming down and the advantages becoming stronger.
but no reason to not have conventional ICE benefiting from some of that technology either.
couldn't agree more, larry.
Larry,
The only catch is that the generator used for regenerative braking is also an electric motor.
All electric motors are generators and vice versa. Spinning forward it is an electric motor, spinning backwards it is a generator.
Why would you put a generator/electric motor in a vehicle and only use the capabilities of the generator? It only makes sense to also plug the electric motor into the drive train, being that it is already in the vehicle.
because cars use batteries also and use generators to recharge them?
why not recharge them from regenerative brakes?
you could do that, but you'd still be losing out on the full potential without a larger battery pack, at least from my understanding.
yeah.. I don't know but the alternator in conventional ICE engines does suck horsepower when it cycles ... and if other things also helped recharge the battery.. there might be some very marginal improvement.
Anyone know what the improvement is with hybrids? It must be more but I would not understand why.
Indigo Incarnates
So, Lutz suggests continuing to make money-losing SUVs instead? Lemme tell ya: during the 2008 gas crunch, I routinely drove by GM dealers that had slashed the prices on $40k SUVs down to $10k-$12k just to get them off the lots. There is no way those SUVs were anything other than money-losers.
i saw the same thing, indigo, yet interest in such vehicles has increased a good bit since 2008.
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