Time to get real about hybrids and plug-ins
All about the dead Presidents? Several months ago, a JD Power survey found that, despite declining gas prices, more than 70 percent of Americans were interested in buying hybrid cars. More than 40 percent of that 70 percent indicated they would pay as much as $5000.00 more for a hybrid.
At the time, however, hybrid sales were declining, as hybrid market share fell below 3 percent. Apparently, it's not easy to put your money where your mouth is.
Can we change this disconnect? Finish: Time to get real about hybrids and plug-ins
Labels: Congress, Foreign Oil Dependency, hybrid tax credits, lithium battery, plug-in hybrid vehicles
posted by Dahcredyns at
9:30 AM
20 Comments:
Full Story
Several months ago, a JD Power survey found that, despite declining gas prices, more than 70 percent of Americans were interested in buying hybrid cars. More than 40 percent of that 70 percent indicated they would pay as much as $5000.00 more for a hybrid.
At the time, however, hybrid sales were declining, as hybrid market share fell below 3 percent. Apparently, it's not easy to put your money where your mouth is.
Inevitably, after selling more than 2 million hybrid cars, Toyota's NiMH-powered hybrid vehicles are still not priced in a way that can make the Camry hybrid more compelling than a conventional Camry for most consumers, or at least not for Toyota. Either way it's all about money.
One way or another, Toyota, the by-far-king of hybrid cars, will never take hybrids to the next level without lithium.
So let's set this mother off! America has a shot!
So, why not a tax credit for every lithium hybrid sold in America? Why not an extra tax credit for lithium hybrids produced in America?
With the money America sends overseas EVERY month for foreign oil dependency, we could easily fund a $3000 tax credit for every lithium hybrid that achieves at least a 20 percent improvement in fuel economy. Make it $4000 for every lithium hybrid built in America, and $5,000 for every lithium hybrid built in America with an American-produced lithium battery.
How will that not lead to massive investment and competition? Oh yeah, and jobs and a massive decrease in foreign oil dependency. Plus, it will make full plug-ins cost-effective sooner. And, finally, it puts more power in the hands of consumers, rather than the corporations that so regularly fail every day Americans despite massive government-funded corporate welfare.
Otherwise, we can wait 3 decades - probably more like 4 or 5 - to even have a chance at ending foreign oil dependency with plug-in vehicles according to essentially every piece of data available on this subject.
Waiting for plug-in vehicles to save America just isn't pragmatic at this time. It's all about lithium and NOT just lithium in plug-in vehicles. Forgoing the cheapest possible lithium vehicles in favor of only lithium plug-in vehicles is the same kind of self-defeating ideology that left the small car market to Japan just a few decades ago.
Let's not make the same mistake again. Today, the plug is not the key technology, it's the battery, and we should be attacking the battery as aggressively and quickly as possible.
Dahcredyns said:
"So, why not a tax credit for every lithium hybrid sold in America? Why not an extra tax credit for lithium hybrids produced in America?"
Reality check. If we can't balance our current budget or even pay for our previous commitments to programs like Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, the Postal Service and single payer health care for all; where is the money going to come from for these tax credits?
I'm Just saying. Is it time for my gas tax plan to be implemented?
There was (is?) a luxury tax for some vehicles. Why not have a $4,000 - $5,000 fuel consumption tax for vehicles that get less than a specific mpg. Obviously, it would need to take into consideration trucks used for business and other special considerations. It sounds better than a tax credit for hybrids which just increases our deficit. The other thing that no one seems to talk about is if we use more gas, how will the reduction in gas taxes be offset to pay for our highway system?
I meant if we use less gas, not more gas. Sorry.
Well as you probably know if you read what I post here that I propose a phased in gas tax of $1.00/gallon but only on gasoline - not diesel or other fuels like heating oils, natural gas and propane used to heat our homes. You also know that the government would only get to keep 10% of the money to administer the program and the other 90% would be spent on renewable energy sources.
Currently I believe the Federal gas tax is only $18.4 cents per gallon but many have proposed a $.10 cent increase later this year. In my not so humble opinion we need to make driving vehicles that get 11-15 mph more painful than that if we are every going to get serious about fixing our economy and environment. And please don't get me started on Cap and Trade which will be the biggest tax increase in the history of our country. If you want your electric bill, clothing, gasoline, food and everything that you use go up 70% then by all means support Cap and Trade.
Gasoline consumption last year was 137,000,000,000 [137 billion gallons]. We could spend 100 billion on renewable energy, cut carbon output, stop building coal plants and still have enough money left over for everyone who buys a more economical [probably a hybrid or electric] vehicle to get a $7,000.00 rebate.
This kind of stuff could be done if we only had the leadership to make it happen. We all sacrificed when we wanted to go to the moon. We all sacrifice everyday by sending our children to war to protect our interests in other countries. We all sacrifice when we send $700 billion dollars to other countries instead of spending the money right here in the good old U.S.A. Maybe its time to sacrifice just a little bit more for our children.
What do you think?
tomgarven@hotmail.com
If you write please put "TAX" in the subject line.
Am I missing something here? There is a hybrid tax credit, and it does apply to American made hybrid cars. There are also lots of incentives out there that can make purchasing a hybrid more cost-effective.
This post has been removed by the author.
"could a unique hybrid truck or crossover compete?"
It's hard to say....There is insufficent data.
All of GM's hybrids are too big and expensive.
Ford Esape is the only reasonable sized hybrid SUV, and it has limited production of 25,000/year.
The problem is that trucks and SUV's have gotten so big, that even hybrid versions of these can't get mileage numbers that generate any excitement.
If trucks and SUV's went back to the sizes they were 15-20 years ago, hybrid versions of these trucks capable of high fuel economy might be a possibility......
With regard to gas taxes, and using the gas tax to tamp down demand, encourage more efficient vehicles ..etc
I found the following interesting. Notice the base price for gasoline (shown on a per liter basis) and then how much tax is put on each liter.
and this is not just one country.. this is across the board in virtually every country in Europe.
http://www.energy.eu/#prices
Larry,
Nice link.
In looking at this data, it is easy to figure out why the US consumes 25% of the worlds oil and has no money to pay for roads & bridges.
Taxes represent 60%-70% of the cost of gasoline in Europe.
In the US, tax is about 15% of the cost of gasoline at today's prices. At $4.00/gallon, tax would represent less than 10% of the cost.
The federal gov't gets only 18.4 cents for each gallon of gasoline purchased.
Considering the rest of the world's tax policies on gasoline, it is "irresponsible" for the US to continue have such a low tax rate, and provide such an incentive for US drivers to consume 25% of the worlds oil.
"Am I missing something here? There is a hybrid tax credit, and it does apply to American made hybrid cars. There are also lots of incentives out there that can make purchasing a hybrid more cost-effective."
Yes. You are missing something. There is no tax credit for Honda or Toyota hybrids.
Moreover, I'm only advocating a tax credit for lithium hybrids.
Currently, there is legislation in place for tax credits for plug-in lithium vehicles only, however, there is no legislation for a lithium-Prius.
US automakers have not made the necessary investments into NiMH production. It is not a viable solution for US automakers.
Lithium, however, offers a chance, but if we think we have time, then we might as well get ready to box up the US auto industry already.
Asia is far ahead of the US regarding lithium. Yet, current lithium legislation is about protectionism and complacency, not achieving real results as quickly as possible.
Tom-
If lithium can prove viable, the investment will easily recover its costs in foreign oil dependency savings alone.
America's only chance, if lithium is viable, is to attack it as if our entire economy and national security is dependent upon it.
On the other hand, what are the chances of a robust enough and well managed gas tax making its way through Congress in the next several years?
Smurf - I'm used to looking at polls in the US about how folks feel about the gas tax but I don't think I've seen too many polls from Europe.
I saw a poll here that said that 80% of people support high speed rail and 60% support some kind of road tolls but only about 15% support an increase in gas taxes.
there appears to be support for using road tolls for transit and rail...
I think what is killing support for a gas tax increase in this country is concern that it will just be gobbled up in black hole roads...
there are some fairly vociferous folks who say that it's wrong to "divert" road taxes to rail.. but I think there are substantial numbers of folks who would support using gas taxes for rail - like they do in Europe.
Larry G,
At some point it becomes irrelvant what the polls say about a gasoline tax.
If we are raising insufficient revenue from gasoline taxes, a rate increase will eventually be required.
As to whether we can redirect gasoline taxes for rail..... I think we can raise gasoline taxes and redirect some of the additional money to rails, but I do not think we can simply redirect gasoline taxes to rails at the current tax rate...
the current rate pretty much is sucked up my maintenance and operations... the parts of the roads that is "not paid for" despite those that think that roads are paid for - once.
but on the gas tax itself.
if only 18% of people support it - no politician in his/her right mind is going to fall on their sword for it ESPECIALLY if people do support tolls.
and that's the way things are going right now.
there is no road construction money and what roads that are getting built are pretty much EZ-Pass (no toll booths) maintain-highway-speed toll roads.
and to be honest with ..this is a much better way to decide in a particular road is really needed or not.
a "really needed" road will function just fine as a toll road.
that's the problem with the gas tax... people do not like slush funds... and that's pretty much how the gas tax works... you pay... someone you don't know and did not elect uses a process that you don't understand to essentially tell you that the road you thought was needed - was not - and the money went elsewhere.
the way the gas tax has operated in this country has basically killed it as a viable source of funds and I submit that until that changes that the support for it will stay under 20%.
Dahcredyns said...
[in part]
Tom-
On the other hand, what are the chances of a robust enough and well managed gas tax making its way through Congress in the next several years?
Tom Responds: I rewrote this darn post at least 3 times :-( Hope I got it right, ha ha.
If you would have asked me 2 or 3 years ago what the chances were of passing such legislation I would have said; 0, zip, none.
Today the political environment is different. More people are realizing that we need to become more proactive when it comes to our environment. Even the current political party that pledged not to raise taxes on certain income levels has raised taxes selectively on a product by product basis which in my opinion is not all bad either. Now I am not part of the group that says please tax me more but SOONER OR LATER, WE or OUR children are going to have to pay for the mess we have got ourselves into. And as much as I hate government waste and incompetence, there is not enough of that to pay for everything we seem to want to do.
Solar, wind, geothermal and bio-fuels are going to be part of the energy sources we use in the future. Even China who seems to builds coal burning power plants about as fast as we cam build a car in the U.S. realizes this is not sustainable and is now spending $100's of billions on renewable energy.
Why is it that they can spend $100's of billions and we can't? Of course you know the answer to that question and the answer is that we are BROKE and going deeper into debt every day.
Larry G. in his post hit the nail squarely on the head and posted a link to demonstrate what other countries pay for fuel. In the end if you want better bridges, roads and freeways add $.25/gallon to the gas tax and they will appear. If you want universal health care add $1.00/gallon to the gas tax. If you want to fix social security and medicare add $1.00/gallon to the tax and eliminate the fraud and waste. If your goal is to become energy independent in 10 years add $1.00 per gallon to the gas tax. That brings us to $3.25 plus the current price of about $2.65 or $5.90/gallon. Lets see; at that rate filling my diesel truck would cost about $175.00. Do you still have any question in your mind about why diesels are more popular in Europe?
If I was the CEO of a company in Indiana that builds RV's I would be looking for some solar panels, wind turbine blades or something else to build or assembly instead of waiting for the RV industry to recover. As much as I hate to say this - The days of cheap fuel are just about over. It is only a matter of time.
If you looked at the link data you can see that this is the approach that some European countries have taken; tax the heck out of fuel. Is this the best approach for America or even what the American people want? I don't know but it might be a good time to start asking how the American people feel about our current situation.
How do you feel about being in debt. I mean; selling off bits and pieces of American to foreign countries? Does that make you more or less proud of your country? How does it make you feel when your president has to go beg for cheap fuel? Does it make you feel proud or does it make you angry?
And yes, Lithium Ion is important and so are Firefly batteries and ultra capacitors. So are smaller vehicles and more fuel efficient trucks, trains, boats, RV's, homes, air conditioners, refrigerators, washers and dryers, UPS and FedEx trucks. And don't forget to turn out the lights when you leave the room unless your smart house does that for you.
Thank you for listening
tomgarven@hotmail.com
I think people will sign on to specific things for a tax.
I do not think they will sign on to essentially a slush fund where someone will decide what to spend it on (or not).
For instance, if the proposal is to put a 25 cent tax on gasoline and it will only go for high speed rail.. I think it has a chance to go forward.
but we all know how it works now.
they give you the crumbling infrastructure needs fixing line then when they get the money they go off to build some new boondoggle and the bridge does not get fixed.
Europe is using TOLLS also guys.
you can have tolls and taxes but the taxes have to go for specific things.
In 2002 a tax referenda in Northern Va went down to defeat - hard - because the wording said something fuzzy about what would be built.
since that time...several successful referendums passed with strong support when they actually named which roads would be built.
this is part of this whole anti-govt stuff that is going around right now.
people do not want to pay any more taxes for the "general betterment".
so.. if you listen.. you'll know that there is a path to tax-funded infrastructure .. you have to sell what it is you want them to buy.
tom-
i've also been advocating a gas tax for a very long time.
while we'll eventually get a gas tax, it will be just to pay for what we've already spent. so i have very little faith in something more proactive and aggressive.
believe me, i hope i'm wrong.
nonetheless, in the interim, i still strongly believe in a tax credit based around lithium.
ford, for instance, has claimed that it has made a breakthrough in lithium batteries.
so, what are waiting for?
it's obvious that Ford's hybrid production, if powered by nimh, is going nowhere fast. if ford hybrids are going to really take off, they are going to take off powered by lithium.
thus, i believe we should be creating as much competition to sell and build as many lithium vehicles in america as possible.
moreover, it shouldn't just be about lithium plug-in vehicles, which are still more about greenwashing than reality.
certainly, it's possible that lithium has been far over-hyped. if true, let's find out as soon as possible so we can move onto other technologies.
Finally, i'm not calling lithium hybrids a cure all. there is already lithium legislation on the books, i'm calling for making that legislation more competitive and effective.
however, lithium wouldn't be my only answer, but in terms of hybrids and battery powered vehicles, the focus should be on lithium, not plugs.
I think a lot of us here support a fuel tax increase. Have patience.
Support for a fuel tax, while still fairly low, is higher than it was 10 years ago. I think we will see this happen a little at a time.
It will most likely appear in the form that most us think, as funding for specific projects to include roads, and rail.
Fuel tax to pay for Health Care? I would love to see this, but it is very unlikely.
i don't know that a fuel tax to pay for health care is politically satiable, but i agree that we need a more wholistic view of our energy paradigm and how it permeates every facet of society.
the stick side of the gas tax is easily understood, the carrot part of it is what's lacking.
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