Ford's new F150: Should it have been a hybrid?
Would a hybrid version have sold?It's probably a smart move that the new 2011 F-Series 'Super Duty' pickup was only made in gasoline and diesel versions. A hybrid version would have assuredly achieved minimal sales volume.
GM has already gone down this hybrid truck path, and without much success, despite the fact that that GM's dual mode hybrid trucks, such as the GMC Sierra hybrid, are easily the best hybrids GM makes. More interesting, if there is one segment of vehicle that needs hybrid technology, it's pickup trucks.
Of course, if GM or Ford sold only hybrid versions of their top selling American pickups, sales - and nice profit margins - would disappear, at least without massive subsidies.
Somewhat ironically, however, GM claims that's its dual mode hybrid technology, particularly designed for large trucks and SUVs, saves far more fuel per vehicle than does the Toyota Prius. And GM is right. Of course, these dual mode hybrids guzzle far more fuel than the Prius does as well.
Nevertheless, for those contractors, mechanics, etc. that truly need such size and functionality, hybrid versions of their favorite pickups could save America a massive amount of fuel.
Will hybrid and electric vehicle technology ever make sense in the full-sized pickup segment? Are fuel economy standards for trucks simply too low?
Labels: Hybrid Vehicles
posted by Dahcredyns at
2:14 PM
34 Comments:
there are many different markets for the F-150 because it can perform a variety of tasks.
But the defacto contractor vehicle is the E150 the van.
I don't know how they compare in sales but it might be an interesting comparison.
The E150 is not the multi-purpose vehicle that the F150 can be... once you put all your "stuff" in there.. you don't unload it so the vehicle can be used for personal weekend service.
I don't think either of these vehicles would have much of a market for a hybrid version but a new one that Ford has introduced would:
the Transit Connect:
http://www.fordvehicles.com/transitconnect/
i guess i was focusing more on how best to deal with the poor fuel economy of these vehicles as a class.
is there a way? and if there is, is it only via tough regulations or some kind of tax?
considering the importance of this class of vehicles to GM and Ford and their gross guzzling, should more attention be paid to this segment?
People forget that the United States NEEDS these vehicles for a whole variety of reasons: business, towing, etc.
these trucks operate in the most unfavorable conditions for fuel economy - that's true.
I think everyone would buy into better fuel economy - but not at the expense of functionality.
In other words, a hybrid truck that has an Asterisk on the performance parameters that are defacto standards for that class - are not going to be popular trucks.
they may find a niche for some folks but others .. for instance the guy that wants to haul a trailer is not going to buy an "imitation" IMHO.
that's one of the classic selling points on the F150 - that right out of the box - it's a real truck ... with no caveats...
The Tundras when they first came onto the market - and even today - are considered lesser trucks than the F150's among the hard core owners.
I think a hybrid version that is a no-compromise version of an F150 - that proves itself - would take hold.... but when you think about it - a no-compromise version is probably just a regular truck that the engine cycles off at traffic signals and delivery stops.. right?
I don't think anybody here is disputing that. However, I don't think anyone would dispute that many that own such vehicles don't need the functionality and utility that such vehicles provide.
Nonetheless, the point is, is there a way to make these vehicles more fuel efficient without destroying the US auto companies? That means the solution cannot be overly punitive.
For instance, there have been large tax incentives for small business owners to buy large vehicles, even if they didn't need such a vehicle.
Why not, as just one example, offer large tax credits for business owners that can prove their need for such vehicles?
for the hybrid version that is.
larry-
gm's hybrid trucks also capture a lot of wasted energy and turn that into fuel as well. so, it isn't just about start/stop technology.
GM actually had (has?) an innovate truck/car called the Avalanche .. right?
I was just reading about diesel electric locomotives which, depending on your point of view, could be called "hybridy" since electric traction motors are used on the wheels.
so that's an example of where the fossil fue/electric combo is a huge advantage and superior to a more conventional pure diesel version (which would take 30 distinct gears if it was pure mechanical locomotion).
but for trucks - you also have to see where they are geographically.... and their typical uses.... to wit:
most are not found in the typical home-to-work-to-home twice a day daily commute which is where a substantial amount of miles are generated and fuel used.
If you have a pickup in your driveway and it's mostly used not as a commuter vehicle but instead for daily errands and weekend trips.....
For myself, I tend to think that quite a bit of of fossil fuel usage is daily commuting to work...
where I live.. we have people who put 100 miles a day on their vehicle just commuting twice a day to work and that commute probably comprises 75% of their overall fuel use.
It's not unusual at all for someone to keep a truck 10 years or more.. either.. whereas a 3 year old car used for commuting with 100K on it is starting to get long in the tooth.
It's my view that many, many folks who solo-commute every day - do not need to.
They do it because they want to .. it's more convenient ... and less hassle...
but over in Europe.. where they put many less miles on vehicles than we do -they ride transit for most of their work/home trips...
the most innovative gm truck, in my biased opinion, is the sierra/silverado hybrid. full truck functionality and hybrid fuel efficiency.
in city fuel economy, that's almost a 50 percent improvement. and the epa's city cycle isn't really that congested. so even suburbia experiences a lot of city congestion according to the EPA's standards.
i think hybrid technology offers a nice gain for most drivers. and if you own your truck for 10 years, there is a lot better chance you'll make your money back, probably even save money.
that's worthy of a business tax credit in my opinion. since we already have a guzzler tax credit for business owners (at least we did for MANY years), why not make it more intelligent?
how does the Chevy Truck hybrid system compared to the Prius or Honda from a technical specs viewpoint?
Look at how gigantic the F-150 is.
Why must all trucks be huge and have 4 doors?
Ford....Try making a smaller more fuel efficient truck. People might actually buy it....
well they do.. they make the Ranger.. which is the same class as the Chevy Colorado and the Toyota Tacoma...Frontier, Dakota, Mazda "B" series, etc.
Today's Ford Ranger has not been a "small" truck for nearly 10 years. It now has 4 doors and is bigger than the F-150 from the 1980's!!!
The same goes for the Tacoma, Colorado, Dakota, Frontier etc. The 1980's versions of these trucks "actually were small". Remember Chevy Luv, Chevy S-10, Dodge D-50, Toyota pickup, Nissan Hard Body, Mitsubishi Mighty Max?
This all started in the mid 1990's, when the Dodge Dakota first came with a 4.3 liter engine. Trucks just kept getting bigger and bigger.
I have seen new small trucks on the road, but I was not in the US when I saw them.....
"I have seen new small trucks on the road, but I was not in the US when I saw them....."
Great line Smurf.
larry-
GM's hybrid trucks perform a lot like the prius in city traffic, however, on the highway, towing, etc., gm's hybrids offer more tools in their hybrid toolbox to achieve better fuel economy, even while towing and carrying a heavy payload.
re" "small" pickups.
just FYI - the bed of a pickup deemed to be most useful will hold a 4x8 sheet of plywood or sheetrock ....
it is curious that hybrid pickups are not more popular - I guess.
I have to say.. I don't think I've actually seen a GM pickup hybrid... .. or course there tend to be about 5 times as many F150's anyhow..
Ford must have a reason for not offering an F150H.
Ford's hybrid technology doesn't work nearly as well as GM's technology on trucks that require full-sized payloads or towing capabilities. I'd bet that's why Ford didn't take this path.
Still, GM's dual mode technology adds about $10,000 to the cost of a conventional, full-sized pickup.
Here is a truck I think many businesses would be interested in:
1. Make a small truck, similar in size to the old 1980's small trucks
2. Put a hybrid system in that truck
Such a vehicle would get 40 mpg in the city and would be ideal for many for small businesses.
This truck would be ideal for:
1. pool cleaners
2. Exterminators
3. Small delivery vehicles.
4. Inspectors
5. Anyone who does a lot of support work in the field.
My son has a small IT support business where he does a lot of field support. Because of the number of miles he drives, his business vehicle is a Honda Civic Hybrid. He carries a lot of tools & IT equipment around, so he would rather have a small truck. Unfortunately, there are no small trucks that get good gas mileage. He therefore uses his Civic Hybrid and puts all the equipment in the back seat and the trunk.
Not all business trucks have to be huge and be able to tow 5 tons. Many business trucks can be small. They used to be 20 years ago.
here it is:
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/02/09/ford-confirms-transit-connect-ev-with-smith-electric-for-2010/
so... will this vehicle "eat" the F150 or more likely the E150?
I'm a bit of a skeptic that a F150 buyer considers a Van when he's making the initial decision about a pickup.
I think F150 folks will have little interest in the Ford Transit Connect - but that vehicle will likely erode the Econoline Sales.
For's original minivan - the Aerostar was a vehicle used by many businesses but FORD stopped making it.. never understood why...
The reviews on the Transit Connect are not all good either... but the fact that a hybrid version of this van will automatically cut off while deliveries are being made is going to make the the delivery vehicle of choice in many urban areas..and for that matter in many suburban areas... but I predict a longer version - one that has a full 8-foot bed.
the ford transit is going to be a lot bigger than what many would need. still, i think there would be a healthy market for both types of vehicles.
Back to the original question......
Should the Ford F-150 have been a hybrid?
My answer is no.
The F-150 is too big. The fuel economy numbers for a hybrid truck that size will not attract buyers.
On the other hand, a small hybrid truck, capable of 40 mpg would attract a lot of attention.
I agree, but for different reasons.
I think the fuel economy numbers of a vehicle like the Sierra hybrid are quite alluring for similarly-sized, conventional pickup drivers.
It's the extra $10,000 up front that is the killer.
Honestly, the F-Series is already bigger than it needs to be and more expensive that it should be. Adding hybrid technology will only boost the price higher and make it very out of reach to most consumers. If the Escape Hybrid is already $30K than how much will an F-Series hybrid run??? I would think that Ford needs to find a way to make this technology less expensive and offer a REAL difference in fuel economy before churning out an F-Series hybrid. How about a dedicated hybrid model first!!! The Escape Hybrid only gets 32MPG anyway!!! Also, those in the market for this kind of vehicle probably aren't too concerned with how much gas costs because they can afford it, so why bother!!!
Most F150s I suspect are not driven as a longer-distance commuter vehicle.
If you go look at a typical urban beltway at rush hour - you're just not going to see that many F-150's compared to others.
Many suburban folks who own an F150.. it's not their primary commuting vehicle but rather a kick-around vehicle to haul stuff from Home Depot and the like.
For rural owners of F150's it might well be their primary vehicle but it's virtually never used as a daily commuting vehicle.
What the sales numbers don't really show - is the different functional uses of the vehicles and comparing an F150 to cars that are used for daily commuting is going to confuse things IMHO.
Does anyone have the sales figures for the Chevy Pickup Hybrid?
it won't be in the top 10, 20 or 30.. I'm betting.. and more likely in the bottom 100.
justin-
"How about a dedicated hybrid model first!!!"
Couldn't agree more.
Larry-
GM's hybrid trucks are barely selling.
I don't know what its like in the beltway, but in Phoenix they are still driving trucks to work. My parking lot is full of trucks that won't even fit into a standard parking spot.
Most folks still can only afford one vehicl per driver, so they want that one vehicle to do "everything" they might ever want it to. That includes the remote chance they might haul a 50-foot sailboat up Pikes Peak.
I saw a quote in an article this morning.
"in regards to its carbon foot print.....
Driving a Sedan is like drive 2 hybrids"
Driving an F-150 is like driving 3 hybrids."
i see an awful lot of trucks used as commuter vehicles in LA as well.
smurf-
well, the sierra achieves about 12 mpg on the EPA's city cycle.
12 mpg. the hybrid version almost doubles that fuel economy.
maybe hybrids aren't the right solution, but something sure needs to be done in this segment.
" Pickup Sales Fall in Another Blow to Automakers"
excerpt:
" When pickup sales were at their peak in 2004, the segment accounted for nearly 15 percent of all new vehicles sold. This year, pickup sales represent about 10 percent of the overall market.
Some of the decline can be attributed to the slowdown in home construction and the impact on contractors, who were among the most reliable buyers of pickups.
But the biggest drop-off has been in consumers who bought pickups for personal use."
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/30/business/30truck.html?hpw
i don't think trucks will ever be as popular as they once were. still, trucks top the list of best selling vehicles every month.
take this sector away from the US auto industry today, and the US auto industry is dead.
well.. Ford says this:
" To start, during the next four years,
Ford will introduce in North America:
The Transit Connect battery electric commercial vehicle in 2010
A new battery electric small car in 2011
Next-generation hybrid vehicles in 2012
Plug-in hybrid versions in 2012
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/02/09/ford-confirms-transit-connect-ev-with-smith-electric-for-2010/
I'm not sure I'm ready to write off FORD just yet...
I see no foreign competitor yet for their transit connect and the market was delivery trucks and contractors is not going to go away... so they may well survive albeit a different company....
well, i don't think anyone was writing off ford because of a lack of hybrid trucks.
to your point, however. sure, ford is in the game, but they've done nothing to demonstrate any real vision or leadership regarding hybrids or EVs. they are simply an average player in the game, at best.
all the vehicles you cite, for instance, will see low production rates for a number of years. they are mostly just placeholders and marketing vehicles until the market shows more of its hand.
the transit electric vehicle is a good idea, but i think a pure hybrid would be more marketable, at least in terms of cost-effectiveness.
"12 mpg. the hybrid version almost doubles that fuel economy."
Dahc,
I drove a small pickup that got 25 mpg in 1980.....
I know I keep hammering on this point, but I believe this is the heart of the issue.
Trucks are simply too big and thus they are not able to achieve sufficent fuel economy.
If small pickup trucks were available we would have a lot more options....
i'm with you.
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