Will cap and trade reduce foreign oil dependency?
Does it all come down to gas prices?As the House quickly tweaks 1200 pages of cap and trade legislation, cutting chunks of it, unfortunately, into large slices of pork, I cannot help but wonder how much cap and trade will affect foreign oil dependency.
A couple months ago USAToday published research that suggested that by 2015 cap & trade would add between .16 cents on the low end to $2.58 on the high end to the price of a gallon of gas.
That's a lot of variability. If cap and trade only results in an extra .16 cents at the pump, it seems hard to believe that cap and trade's affect on gas prices would have much impact on foreign oil dependency. Of course, if the high end becomes reality, we'll significantly reduce foreign oil dependency, but we'll also kill the US auto industry.
Is cap and trade the right approach to foreign oil dependency? Is foreign oil dependency irrelevant compared to global warming?
Labels: cap and trade, Foreign Oil Dependency
posted by Dahcredyns at
9:17 AM
25 Comments:
The only real solution is a High gas tax with a dollar-for-dollar tax dividend. or an income or payroll dollar-for-dollar tax reduction. OR Give $3500 for every hybrid Made in the USA. Pay for it by a gas tax or a oil import tariff
This post has been removed by the author.
While I don't believe cap & trade is perfect.....
There are many within the alternative energy industry who believe cap and trade is all we need to get the ball rolling.
Once cap and trade is implemented, there will be an extremely high rate of inovation and development of alternative energy products......
yes inovation.i will sit in the yard because i wont be able to afford electric.i will have to up my hunting to year round because i wont be able to afford groceries.and since im a truckdriver i will probobly lose my job because my company will be taxed for carbon.
DOES ANYBODY UNDERSTAND THAT AS HUMANS WE ARE CARBON BASED.
IF YOU GUYS WANT TO PAY MORE TAXES I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE TAX FORM THAT YOU PAID MORE BECAUSE YOU DIDNT PAY ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!SPAIN IS WONDERING WHY WE ARE DOING WHAT THEY ALREADY ARE TRYING TO GET A WAY FROM,THEY HAVE 18 PERCENT UNEMPLOYMENT BECAUSE COMPANIES WILL LEAVE ANY COUNTRY THAT CAP AND TRADE IS IMPLEMENTED.
HOW ABOUT DRILL OUR OWN OIL BUILD NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS.GET OUT OF MY PAYCHECK I CANT AFFORD 3000 MORE IN TAXES A YEAR CAN YOU!
A gas tax has clearly been proven to accelerate 'green' technology and that is undisputed.
Will some people whine and cry about it ? Yes. Is life painful sometimes ? Yes. Is life always fair ? No.
Does 'global warming' care if Humans self destruct its own species ? Nope.
Millions of years after Humans were ever last heard whining and crying about 'fairness', the planet breathed a sigh of relief that its air and water wee once again pristinely clean. For the Planet its just another natural phase of Darwinian evolution where the species that was 'so advanced' could not adapt and became extinct(did any other Advance Life form notice us while we briefly in the neighborhood ? Nope.
I forwarded the following comments to my Congressman about a month ago [in part]. Hope you find it comments interesting.
1. Cap and Trade does not create wealth or help the American people. In fact it robs the people of needed funds by increasing the cost of energy at a time when we should be doing exactly the opposite.
2. Cap and Trade is perceived by many Americans as just another tax to help create a bigger government and/or to line the pockets of a select group of individuals or corporations who hold or will be trading carbon credits.
3. Cap and Trade does nothing to create a larger workforce who pay taxes but does the exactly the opposite by removing needed capital from the private investment sector which is needed to build the renewable energy plants.
4. Cap and Trade is not a product; you can't eat it, the public can't spend or save it, you can't drive it or plant it in the ground and watch it grow. I rest my case.
I still prefer a gas tax. A tax on gasoline is not only transparent but also easily verifiable. We know how many gallons of gasoline is used every year and we can easily verify how much money should be available for renewable energy projects. If we were to increase the gas tax by $1.00 per gallon this would give us 1.3 trillion dollars over a ten year period to invest in renewable energy projects.
We must however control what the government gets to keep of our tax money. I propose the government only get to keep 10% of the collected taxes to manage the gas tax program. The other 90% would be used exclusively for renewable energy projects.
I believe one of major problems holding back many solar, wind and other renewable energy projects is the lack of capital [$$$.$$] to build the plants. Even the cost of the panels has come down to about $1.00 per watt, and continues to fall, so cost is no longer even a real issue. The real issue is there is not enough money left in the system to fund all the renewable projects we need.
If we used the gas tax money collected to fund low interest loan to solar, wind and other manufacturers of renewable energy products we could become a world leader in carbon reduction. You would see millions of roofs covered with solar panels. You would see CO2 levels drop, conservation improve and the manufacturers of electric vehicles would jump on the electric car band wagon.
My personal belief is that Cap and Trade or Tax or whatever you prefer to call it is not only not needed but is the wrong approach to solving our energy problems.
We don't need another 20 new government agencies to tell us what we can and can not do. We don't need to tax natural gas, oil, cosmetics, medications, food, tractor fuel, utility electric bills, truck fuel, energy star windows, air conditioners or anything else that takes energy to manufacturer. This will be the biggest tax increase in the history of our country.
If Cap and Trade is voted into law it will be a sad day for our country.
What is holding back alternative energy is the fact that economically, oil, coal and natural gas are still the cheapest games in town. Until we level the playing field economically, we will never see a significant decrease in oil, coal and natural gas usage.
Cap and trade will make oil, coal and natural gas more expensive, thus helping to level that playing field.
For those saying we cannot afford to do this because it will be too painful and too costly......The same argument was made in the mid 1800's as the reason not to abolish slavery. People felt that the transition away from slavery would be too painful economically.
In reality, the end of slavery led to some the of the greatest industrial innovation this nation has ever seen.
it used to be that if a guy had an idea that he thought would work he would work on it in his garage perfect it ,raise his own capital,through loans friends family ect.then try and market it and if he was lucky it would sell.if you want to live in a level playing field go to one of the countries that we freed in the past and try it there.china i here is going to have a lot of jobs before too long they already have most of what we used to manufacture now we are just going to give them whats left .I am truly sorry that i dont understand why we have to give our countries productivity away in order to save the earth especially when the earths temperature has stayed level since the year 2000. wich for some reason confuses some scientists.using less and taking care of our planet is a must but not at the expense some of you refuse to see.wait until farmers have to sequester cow burps and farts inorder to be legal...yes its in the bill.the one nobody read
AGAIN!HOW LONG WILL IT BE FEFORE THEY REMOVE OUR RIGHT TO VOTE IN FOUR YEARS.BECAUSE THEY SIGN THINGS WITHOUT READING THEM
i give up
Oh come on now Anonymous - don't give up LOL.
For others here who want to learn more about what Cap and Trade really covers please go to the link below and read the Congressional Budget Office [CBO}Cost Estimate. The CBO Cost Estimate is only 42 pages long and is quite interesting reading. It defines some of the new government agencies we will be creating and how much money will be collected in new taxes. Of course you all know who is going to be paying all the new additional taxes right? LOL. A little over 1 trillion dollars the way I read it. Lets see; at about 7-8 billion each for a new 1000 MW nuclear plant, how many can we build for a trillion dollars? Wonder how many solar or geothermal plants that would build. Care to guess how many solar panels that is at $300.00 each?
After reading the report please return to blogger and tell us what you think. It is the latest version I could find online however there may be a later copy out there someplace in .gov land.
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/102xx/doc10262/hr2454.pdf
Raise the oil import duty by 20% without hurting the oil production in the u.s.
"Anonymous said:
Raise the oil import duty by 20% without hurting the oil production in the u.s. "
That is also a good idea. 20% of $68.00/barrel is about $13.60 or would make oil about $81.60 per barrel. Each barrel contains about 42 gallons of gasoline so we are looking at a tax of about $.32 cents per gallon. Right about in line with what Lee Iaccoca wanted back in the 1980's.
Sign me up.
Glad to see your back Anonymous
Raise the oil import duty by 20% without hurting the oil production in the u.s.
& ? ? What would you do with the money ? ? ?
Raising fuel prices on people in the US will reduce oil dependency...nothing else.
Here's an interesting piece on the cap and trade program announced. It comes from a conservative publication, the Financial Times, but I think its very relevant.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/706bbcde-640d-11de-a818-00144feabdc0.html
Most important, the article claims this program is terribly flawed. And with over 1200 pages, that isn't hard to believe. Moreover, because this issue is so contentious, massive pork and loopholes had to be included in order to get enough votes to pass this through the House.
Thus, I'd argue that a gas tax is far and away a better solution than cap and trade, especially in the interim. In the short to mid term, this plan is all carrots, not sticks and results.
Besides, one only had to follow the alternative energy stocks last summer as gas prices rose. Cap and trade isn't the only way to increase spending and innovation into alternative energy.
Moreover, a gas tax, as has already been stated, is much more simple and transparent. And, inevitably, I think that is the key. Congress has proven over and over how inefficient it is when it comes to managing and investing tax payer money.
The only way to end America's dependence of foreign oil is for the Federal government to mandate that a continuously growing (over a few decades) percentage of gasoline, diesel fuel, and aviation fuel be derived from carbon neutral resources such as urban and rural biowaste and hydrocarbon fuels produced from nuclear power plants utilizing water electrolysis and CO2 extraction from air or biowaste.
Once this synfuel industry is up and running, it should only take a few decades to completely replace the petroleum economy with a synfuel economy as long as light vehicles in the US completely move towards PHEV's and EVs and enough biowaste and nuclear synfuel power plants are built to do the job.
In an PHEV and EV economy, you'd have to add approximately 400 1.1 GWe nuclear power plants dedicated to synfuel production in order to become totally independent from both foreign and domestic petroleum products.
http://newpapyrusmagazine.blogspot.com/2008/01/nuclear-synfuel-economy.html
One way or another it seems we need a real impetus.
Something like a gas tax makes investments into alternative energy much more cost competitive, whether those alternative energy plays are syn fuels, biofuels, solar, wind, etc. - probably a combination of all of them.
Everyone on this blog knows I am for a gas tax [carbon tax if you want to call it that] as a more simplified, direct and more easily verifiable approach to meeting our renewable energy goals. You also know I only want to let the government keep 10% of the taxes we give them to manage the program with the other 90% used exclusively for renewable energy.
The one thing I have not done is to address some of the political issues all of us face.
Many members of Congress and some corporations like GE as an example, currently hold Carbon Credits and stand to make billions if Cap and Trade passes Congress. In addition, many private individual like Al Gore also hold significant numbers of Carbon Credits and are also going to become quite wealthy. Wall Street also can't wait for this to pass.
So, just how wealthy do you want to be, is $5 million enough or is $1 billion what you need to feed your ego. Or do you need a couple of trillion dollars because that is what the government wants from you and me.
Now I am not against GE making money since they do create thousands of jobs or Al Gore becoming wealthy because that has been and IS the American way. What I do OBJECT to is when either Corporations or individuals do something that is not in the best interest of our country and I believe there is way to much of that going on lately. Enron Corp, Bernie Madoff, Wall Street CEO's, and politicians who fail to pay their taxes or run off to Brazil to be with a girlfriend.
In my not so humble opinion we are all in this together. Democrats, Republicans, Liberals, Conservatives; it really doesn't make any difference to me. We all drink the same water, share the same air and live on the same planet. You do realize that Mother Nature doesn't really care how you vote right LOL Did you also know that according to government scientists every human breathes out 2.3 pounds [1KG] of Carbon Dioxide per day. Multiply that times 6.7 billion people and see what you have. When do you think the government is going to start telling us to stop having children? The Census Bureau had this to say in 2008: "the Nation's population is projected to increase to 392 million by 2050 - more than a 50 percent increase from the 1990 population size". If you are wondering why we need renewable energy this should give you a good idea.
Cap and Trade is not going to get us there. There is too much bargaining, special interest giveaways, exceptions and lobbying for this to have a happy ending for the American people. In closing, please help stop this legislation.
If you care to write please put 'BLOGGER' in the subject line.
tomgarven@hotmail.com
Tom-
There aren't a lot of us out there that believe in the gas tax according to the polls. And I think most of us open to a gas tax, largely agree with you.
Still, some believe that this cap and trade legislation is at least a positive step, and it probably is a step forward, but I agree that it is an inefficient step.
Regardless, whether it's cap and trade, a carbon tax, a gas tax, etc., the majority of Americans just aren't on board. Yet, something has to be done.
How could we possibly convert the non-believers towards something like a gas tax?
cut congressmans income in half and senators too.then tax at 50 percent any and all outside income they make.speeches, lobbying, ect.make them all take a drug test to keep their jobs.like i have to.i would then consider a gas tax.
good luck
Dahcredyns said...[in part]
"Regardless, whether it's cap and trade, a carbon tax, a gas tax, etc., the majority of Americans just aren't on board. Yet, something has to be done.
How could we possibly convert the non-believers towards something like a gas tax?"
Wow talk about a good question. Well the best answer I can come up with is to go back to the days when I was teaching Team Works [employee based teams].
Individuals can accomplish much if they are in a position of power, authority or control vast sums of good old fashioned cash. LOL
Teams on the other hand build on a general idea [like how to sell a gas tax to the public] and use the creative synergies of all of the team members to build on that idea.
As an individual I am neither in a position of authority nor do I control vast sums of money. What I do have is an excellent understanding of how our corporate systems work. I have had the privilege of working both WITH and FOR some of the best CEO and CFO's in the country and have learned to build strategies that motivate people to action. I am also a pretty nice guy LOL
However I am just one individual and we need hundreds just like me and YOU who are also not politicians. Individuals with specialized talents who can get people to a position of consensus of the best approach. Individuals who can speak out and build bridges to those individuals in power. Maybe one of YOUR skills would be the ability build a computer application and data base to automate the process of getting our concerns to member of Congress. Maybe another individual will know the best time to approach the President.
And we must not overlook all the CEO and CFO's of all the Fortune 1000 companies. We must also not overlook the millions of small business owners. Oh and before I forget we need to get the labor unions on board.
How about the general public? Well by the time both you and your spouse have each worked 50-60 hours a week, taken the kids to day care, soccer practice, went grocery shopping, watched TV for 2-5 hours and then hit the sack who would care about a gas tax. MOST Americans are even too busy to take a vacation. Most citizens don't even know who their State representatives are. Ever watch J. Leno ask political questions of people on the street?
So that's my best solution - form TEAMS OF INDIVIDUALS to come up with the best plan.
Did that answer your question?
Anonymous said...
"cut congressmans income in half and senators too.then tax at 50 percent any and all outside income they make.speeches, lobbying, ect.make them all take a drug test to keep their jobs.like i have to.i would then consider a gas tax.
good luck"
Anonymous:
You are being way to nice to the people who are suppose to be working for you.
Congress can vote themselves a pay raise whenever they want and no one even shows up to protest it.
Congressmen have a better medical plan than either you or I have.
I guess some members of Congress don't even feel they should be required to pay taxes and they don't even get their hand slapped.
Congressmen get vested retirement after how much time????? How many years do you have to work to get vested retirement or does you company even offer it?
Congressmen get special home financing deals how about you?
And the list goes on and on and you only want to tax them at 50%.
You are a very generous individual.
Whether it's cap and trade or a gas tax increase, there is simply one cost that we cannot afford.
That's the cost of doing nothing..
Smurf said...
"Whether it's cap and trade or a gas tax increase, there is simply one cost that we cannot afford.
That's the cost of doing nothing"
tomgarven said:
I agree; doing nothing is never going to get the job done. Just as important as doing nothing is doing what is right for the American people. It is also probably true that taking another 30-90 days to get the legislation right isn't going to make a significant difference in our environment either. Also dumping a 300 page amendment to the bill on the laps of Representatives at 3:00 a.m. in the morning wasn't the smartest move either.
There are some individuals in government who will never be qualified as the sharpest cheese in the deli case.
Probably 90% of our elected official didn't even read the 300 page amendment before voting for it. Talk about dumb blind faith.
So is it any wonder that people are beginning to feel like the government is out of control. The government can't even get the approved shovel ready TARP funds out the door in a timely manner.
Here is a question for you to answer. WHY SHOULD THE GOVERNMENT BE IN A HURRY TO GET APPROVED TARP FUND OUT THE DOOR WHEN MONEY IS POWER?
It might also be true that we need a phase in plan for either Cap and Trade or an increase in the gas tax based on the state of the economy. Dumping the full effect of this legislation on the backs of the American people at this time might be a really bad idea; but then again I am not an economist.
I could certainly get behind a $.25 cent per year increase in the gas tax for 4 years. Doing so would address many issues.
Would allow time for automobile manufacturers to ramp up hybrid and electric car/truck production.
Would give the American people a heads up of what's coming down the pike so they can make good purchasing decisions.
Would allow some additional phase in time for science, business and industry to improve our renewable energy technologies.
Would gradually increase costs over time instead of creating a monster over night.
Would rapidly cut carbon emissions by reducing consumption AND by implement renewable energy.
No single plan will ever be perfect but we can sure do better than Cap and Trade. In my not so humble opinion; it is time for the American people to 'just say no'.
It wil be a disaster, and short lived. Whatever any wacko wants, in the end darwinian (sp) dynamics will weed it (and them) out. It is going to be a tough few years though....
Cap and trade will result in the end of a goog many political careers. In this way, and only this, it is a VERY good thing.
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