Time to restore hydrogen and fuel cell funding?
Another fuel cell concept from HondaToday, a number of organizations and trade groups called on Congress to restore funding for hydrogen and fuel cell research. Forgive me, but I think it's a great idea.
Certainly, many will point out that fuel cells are some never ending fairy tale with a conclusion that is perpetually just around the corner. Even worse, hydrogen production simply doesn't make sense.
Yet, Asian automakers - the same automakers that have beat US automakers to every punch - are still aggressively pursuing fuel cell vehicles and hydrogen production, as are most major European producers. Moreover, to assume that science has nothing left to offer on this front is, well, not very scientific.
Fuel cells should never have been a reason not to purse hybrid cars and other electric vehicles. Nonetheless, battery powered electric vehicles are no reason not to pursue hydrogen powered electric vehicles. Today, for instance, EV infrastructure is more myth than reality, especially if that infrastructure is to be powered by clean energy.
Spending a few hundred million on fuel cell and hydrogen research is chump change. We've already spent billions on Chrysler, a completely inept car company. Yet, we can't spend a few hundred million on a gamble that could revolutionize the entire energy paradigm?
Labels: fuel cells, Hybrid Vehicles, hydrogen highway
posted by Dahcredyns at
11:58 AM
23 Comments:
There is an opinion that grid to hydrogen efficiency is 2-3 times lower than grid to wheel efficiency of an electric vehicle. That is cheap and energy-efficient hydrogen is a huge problem.
i think that current research suggests that there is a lot yet to be discovered with regards to hydrogen and that there is still great potential.
and, since the amount in question is truly a miniscule percent of the budget, the upside is worth the risk.
again, this research shouldn't limit EV development, however, with the US auto industry in financial shambles, simply letting European and Asian automakers own this area of research is a far bigger risk.
if the us auto industry was more healthy i probably wouldn't be as concerned. under the current circumstances, however, i have no doubts that the government should continue this funding.
since hydrogen does not exist in native form.. it has to be "cracked" from other substances... like natural gas ...
in other words.. it requires energy to "create" hydrogen fuel.
I don't see any way around this unless someone else does.
the only way to create hydrogen fuel is to have an abundant source of cheap energy.
I supposed it may be possible to use wind/solar to create hydrogen and then pipe the hydrogen to where it can be consumed...or ... perhaps use the hydrogen to create electricity to feed into the grid.
where have I got this wrong?
Larry the answer is here
http://www.efcf.com/reports/E21.pdf
Dahc,
but I agree with you. It does not matter that fuel cells will not be efficient in the future. We can invent a better way to do hydrogen.
Hydrogen has tremendous potential to become the fuel of the future. it canbe porduced from viable and sustainalbe sources and can contribute to meeting the growth in global energy demand.
Hydrogen can be produced from vairous energy sources, both fossil fuels and sustainable sources, using various production technologies. Production of hydrogen is relativelysimple compared to the processes used for making conventional fuels.
Donna Rennemo
Founder
Earth Minded Online.com
Hydrogen has tremendous potential to become the fuel of the future. it canbe porduced from viable and sustainalbe sources and can contribute to meeting the growth in global energy demand.
Hydrogen can be produced from vairous energy sources, both fossil fuels and sustainable sources, using various production technologies. Production of hydrogen is relativelysimple compared to the processes used for making conventional fuels.
Donna Rennemo
Founder
Earth Minded Online.com
Hydrogen is much cleaner as a fuel - no question about it but how do you get hydrogen without using other fuels to extract/convert it?
here's an excerpt from the referenced PDF:
" The full dimensions of the challenge become apparent
when these numbers are translated to a specific case. The
following case study may serve to illustrate the point.
About 50 jumbo jets leave Frankfurt Airport every day,
each loaded with 130 tons of kerosene. If replaced on a
1 : 1 energy base by 50 tons of liquid hydrogen, the daily
needs would be 2500 tons or 36 000 m3 of the cryogenic
liquid, enough to fill 18 Olympic-size swimming pools.
Every day 22 500 tons of water would have to be electrolyzed.
The continuous output of eight 1-GW power
plants would be required for electrolysis, liquefaction, and
transport of hydrogen. If all 550 planes leaving the airport
were converted to hydrogen, the entire water consumption
of Frankfurt (650 000 inhabitants) and the
output of 25 full-size power plants would be needed to
meet the hydrogen demand of air planes leaving just one
airport in Germany."
I want as much or more for us to find a better way.. but in that journey ..we must recognize some realities if we truly want to find a viable path.
In fact.. if we let ourselves be sidetracked into wishful thinking... we fail.
larry-
there is hydrogen research producing results that everyday question what we thought we knew.
ultimately, if hydrogen comes true, i'd bet it will be a systemic approach that succeeds. for example, we'll learn how to desalinate water using solar power that produces hydrogen as a by product or something sort of like that.
or, it might just be that hydrogen becomes the key to storing solar and wind power most effectively.
also, hydrogen research has led to some interesting results on electromethanogenesis. i wrote about electromethanogenesis hybrids, for instance, not long ago based on very recent research produced as a result of hydrogen research.
regardless, my ultimate point is that US automakers can't really focus much here. yet, every major automaker from europe and japan is still strongly pursuing hydrogen, or at least fuel cells.
isn't staying in the game worth a few hundred million - an amount we spend in only a few weeks securing OPEC oil?
About half of what hydrogen advocates have proposed is less efficient than the electric equivalent. The other half is worth saving. We need to distinguish between the useful and the wasteful, not condemn the whole thing just because some parts of it may be impractical.
People need to understand that hydrogen technology without a renewable clean energy source is nonsense. Implementation of hydrogen is preparation for the day when we will have abundant renewable carbon-free energy. Making hydrogen by using any carbon fuel is completely unacceptable except in the short term as a transitional technology. We need to continue with the best parts of hydrogen technology, but we also need to get renewable energy (expecially solar) in high gear right now, or we will not be able to defend any part of it.
With cheap and abundant renewable energy, hydrogen is good. Without renewable energy, hydrogen is bad. It's that simple.
Fallacy of energy efficiency argument against hydrogen fuel cell vehicles by plug-in battery advocates
http://hydrogendiscoveries.wordpress.com/2009/02/19/fallacy-of-energy-efficiency-argument-against-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles-by-plug-in-battery-advocates/
Greg Blencoe
Chief Executive Officer
Hydrogen Discoveries, Inc.
"Hydrogen Car Revolution" blog
Bill Reinert and Irv Miller from Toyota set record straight on plug-in battery vehicles
Here are three excerpts from a MUST-READ article by Jim Motavalli titled “Toyota’s Problem With Plug-in Hybrids” that was published last Tuesday on Bnet.com:
“Instead of the 100 miles per gallon equivalent that some proponents claim, the plug-in reality is between 50 and 55 mpg…”
“Miller said that the promise of the lithium-ion battery pack—used in both PHEVs and pure battery EVs—has led to ‘inflated expectations beyond the technical realities.’”
“Miller said that battery technology has lagged behind that of hydrogen fuel cells.”
http://industry.bnet.com/auto/10001607/toyotas-problem-with-plug-in-hybrids/
Greg Blencoe
Chief Executive Officer
Hydrogen Discoveries, Inc.
"Hydrogen Car Revolution" blog
Greg,
Your report has too many moot points and outright errors.
Greg,
I don't care what big guys are saying, unless they prove it. It has been PROVEN that 100 mpg is really achieved in many conditions.
I and most my friends, e.g., would go completely electric about 70+ percent of the time.
Fuel cells seem to be inefficient for now,
but we hope for the future advances.
Dahc,
I don't follow this Toyota's argument about extra 300 - 116 = lbs. It is approximately 7% extra to the current Prius weight. Should be less than 7% worse fuel efficiency? That is still 45-50 mpg? If you drive 50% time electric and 50% - 50 mpg, how can it possibly be 50 mpg? It should be at least 75. For most people, however, it would be 80-90 electric all the time.
The whole statement looks like Toyota going for ROI on their investment in hybrid technology.
This post has been removed by the author.
dumb question time.
If we had abundant renewable energy.. why would we convert it to Hydrogen?
I'm assuming that renewable energy would be harvested as electricity - no?
so.. we get electricity from renewable energy then we use it to extract hydrogen from h20 or natural gas?
why?
why not just feed the electricity into the grid and use it that way?
Because it is not only about cars, but also about planes and ships. Currently, you don't want to have an electric plane.
because lots of renewable energy is lost if there isn't a way to store it. storing it in batteries isn't effective, at least not today, especially if you think of large solar power plants. storing it as hydrogen, many believe, offers more options for storage and transport.
This is not an issue that can be decided with spreadsheets. Cost projections and energy efficiency studies are tools for the disemination of bias, statistical lies and distortions. All options should be supported vigorously until physical and financial reality determines a winner. Nobody has enough valid information on this subject to predict a winner at this early stage of development. For all we know, both hydrogen and battery vehicles could coexist for decades before one or the other becomes dominant. This is not a decision for the limited imaginations of inexperienced speculators. It is a decision for future consumers.
a friend of mine installed a hydrogen attachment to his jeep he easily did it in an hour he bought a kit it came with a insert that goes into his intake.fill a canister with water and improved his mil;eage like almost double.ive seen plans on how to make them for yourself but i though the kit form was better.
this effectively turns any vehicle into a hybrid.being able to retrofit any vehicle is the best and more effective way to get people to do something.
i also believe that none of this research should cancel out any other.thats why government funding should not be given to any of the ideas.
I think there's a lot of things yet to be discovered with regards to "hydrogen". It takes a lot of time for this innovation and requires energy to create hydrogen fuel.
It takes energy to create just about any fuel. Even solar power requires a lot of energy to create solar panels.
Watch the science news. Hydrogen research is being carried out throughout the world. Many countries are significantly increasing their hydrogen and fuel cell research. If you follow the news, you'll see that every day new breakthroughs are taking place.
America cannot just let the rest of the world have this technology. Thus, I think the financial risks are worth the rewards.
Bottom line is that the gov and industry want to milk us for all we don't have .Had the gov. gave all of us that have a house the money they gave the corp. to buy solar pannels we could have supplied the ness.electric this country needs,the bunk about the banks was just a ploy to send money to the european,arab power players that control the us .
Post a Comment
<< Home