Jetta TDI better than the Toyota Prius?
Not enough engine?Last night I was half asleep when I think I saw a new VW commercial pitting the new VW Jetta TDI against hybrids. Essentially, the commercial portrays the TDI as a very fuel efficient vehicle - just like a hybrid - but an efficient car with real power, unlike wimpy hybrid cars.
I laughed. It's a funny commercial and I'm sure it will resonate with hybrid haters. Still, it's a joke, if fuel economy is your priority.
Both the new Prius and the latest TDI cost about the same. Yet, according to the EPA, the TDI achieves 30/41 mpg, city/highway. The 2010 Prius will achieve about 50 mpg on both cycles. Thus, unless your commutes are at constant speeds without any stop signs, street lights, traffic, etc., the Prius is going to achieve far better fuel economy than the TDI.
Of course, the TDI will make you feel more manly. I guess that's worth something to some people.
Labels: Hybrid Vehicles, toyota prius
posted by Dahcredyns at
8:57 AM
73 Comments:
How will they sell their precious vehicles if they don't cheat ? :-) BTW, diesel in US is 10% more expensive. Therefore, in terms of dollars spent 41 mpg of jetta is in reallity 37 mpg equivalent.
BTW, what do you think about this one:
http://www.leftlanenews.com/next-prius-to-offer-113-mpg.html
Could it be true? I mean 94mpg.
well, according to the Japanese government's city methodology, the prius will achieve 90 mpg in the city.
nonetheless, neither the british or japanese methodology measure up in america. i'd bet for the average american driver, 50 mpg is a pretty real number. certainly, many will blow this number away, although i think 90 mpg will only happen on short commutes in very congested traffic.
nonetheless, in some markets, diesel is now cheaper than gasoline, but i doubt this will last. still, even if 10 percent cheaper, the number still don't add up. the prius is by far a better deal if fuel economy is your focus.
what do you think of this story?
Obama to Announce New Mileage and Emission Standards - NYTimes.comI would say this changes everything and we will see a lot of new hybrids coming from all car manufacturers and probably several Prius killers!
Zen, could you understand how do we have 27 mpg standard right now, but the national average of sold cars and SUVs is about 20?
Sorry, could you explain? Because I don't understand that completely. :-(
Dahc,
It looks like the methodology is bullshit. It does not give you the average value but, instead, a peak value. This is not fair. I actually wondered, if they could do something that will make 90mpg on average. Well, at least 70-80mpg.
Sorry, it seems that I have found an answer myself:
"A number of manufacturers choose to pay CAFE penalties rather than attempt to comply with the regulations. As of model year 2006, BMW, DaimlerChrysler, Volkswagen, Ferrari, Porsche and Maserati failed to meet CAFE requirements."
Well...
I own a TDI and I can tell you that without much trying I regularly get 50+MPG (54.6 on my last trip) on the hway cruising at 70+ MPH and when I step on the gas... it goes in a hurry.
I think that the Volkswagen Jetta TDI more fun to drive. While Jetta does not assume the high platfrom of a great car, it delivers as much as Prius. Volkswagen Jetta is a more reliable too for the long run. So what is Toyota trying to prove with the Prius?
Rahul
Indian Car Advisor (Carazoo.com)
Jetta TDI is probably more fun to drive if you compare it with the old Prius. The new Prius has 98 hp of gasoline power only, so in many cases it will even feel sportier than Jetta. But that is really not the point. The point is that Jetta is just old and outdated (car) though rather nice. And pretty expensive too. Pretty soon, most cars will be electric/hybrid/or fuel-cell driven. You are on the loosing side, anyway.
PS: Volkswagen care are not as reliable as Toyota cars.
Rahul-
What is the Prius trying to prove? That anyone that lives in a city and spends time in traffic can still achieve incredible fuel economy.
Certainly, the both the TDI and the Prius can achieve better than what the EPA suggests, but there is no doubt that in congestion, in terms of fuel economy, the Prius is far superior to the TDI.
How much more do you need?
LB -
As you've been looking around, have you noticed anything about changes in how cafe is going to be calculated?
If not it seems obvious that CAFE won't have nearly as huge an affect on fuel economy as it would seem, especially if congestion increases for more and more commuters as the current numbers are skewed more towards highway fuel economy.
Dahc,
I do not know details.
Well, if its the way CAFE is currently computed there will be plenty of loopholes. At least the flex fuel credit is eventually set to expire.
i would MUCH rather drive a sporty nice looking VW than some weird looking slow Toyota.
The new Prius will be sporty enough with 100 hp + electric boost, vs 108 hp just gasoline. It sure does not handle that good as VW, but most people would not care.
anon-
and i'd MUCH rather throw my conscious in the gutter and forget about foreign oil dependency, but i can't.
I'm glad you can, and i bet you look good, right? and what else really matters in life?
Dahc,
I think you are way too strict. The VW-jetta owners should certainly look into something like this Honda CRZ:
http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2009/112_0904_2011_honda_crz/index.html
Powered as well as hybrid Toyota Camry, though 1.5 times lighter, it would probably make it 0-60mph in around 6 seconds. Will be fun to drive :-)
i agree that i'm a little psycho re: this issue. that's ok, everyone needs to get crazy about something, right?
Not really, psycho. But I think that we could do better in persuading people.
is prius comes with manual treansmission, as long as prius dont offer manual option im sticking with diesel
i can understand that point of view. i'd love a manual prius.
There are good points to be made about both cars. I'm not a "hybrid-hater" or even a "diesel-lover" for that matter. But I just did an extensive search for a new car, and ended up with a Jetta TDI.
I recently lost a job, and got a new one that will require a 65 mile commute (130 per day). I had a toyota Tacoma, and in the first week of work I filled up about 2.5 times.
So I went on a search for a fuel efficient car... I considered Hybrid's, standards and diesels. I chose the Jetta TDI for these reasons: 1 - where I live, Diesel is never more than 20 cents higher than regular, so that's not a big downside. 2 - I read many articles saying the TDI gets more than 50mpg highway, so the EPA estimates are low. I experienced this myself in the first week of driving, by the way. 3 - This is a big one...The cost is significantly lower than the Hybrids, and I can even get a $1,300 tax credit. 4 - New diesel technology is much cleaner, and less pollutant than before. This car is not a smoky exhaust diesel, and even meets California's emissions requirements. 5 - The standard features on the TDI interior are much nicer than the standard on Hybrids. And again, it costs less. 6 - It has very nice handling, and is very fun to drive. VW Jettas are extremely reliable over the last 10+ years(consumer reports, edmunds agree).
There's nothing wrong with Hybrids, and they are getting better every year. But for a person who will do much more highway driving, the TDI is more cost effective and gets comparable (sometimes better) highway mpg to that of Hybrids.
Just trying to offer my objective analysis of the cars.
-Jeff
Jeff, Prius on highway often gets 60 mpg. It costs about the same money as automatic Jetta, but the general statement is right: it is more fun to drive and it is cheaper. BTW, how much was yours? It was mechanical I guess?
Hi LB. I was glad to see that prius' are getting cheaper, but still not as cheap as they could be in my opinion. For the TDI, I got the automatic model. I live in Virginia and it was MSRP at about 24,500. This particular car had leather seats (standard for TDI), bluetooth, and 2 sets of floormats. If I do the most apples/apples comparison to the Prius in terms of interior, it would cost about 26,700 MSRP. Plus, I would get the $1,300 tax credit on the VW. I talked the dealer down about $1,000 (or got an extra grand for my trade-in, however you slice it) so adding everything up, I probably saved about 4,000 to 5,000 by getting the Jetta TDI. I've been able to get better than 55mpg (why do they spec it at 40??) on the highway as well. I've driven many types of cars (including hybrids, trucks, V6's, you name it) and I have to say, the Jetta handles better than probably any car I've ever had. I used to think that was more VW hype than anything else, but it's true. The turbo-charge comes in very nicely on the highway as well. So to me it was a no-brainer getting the TDI. Even if the prius could get 5 more mpg highway, I just don't think it's worth the extra cost. Not to mention it's next to impossible to talk a Hybrid Dealer down in price. They are so smug with the Hybrids, they are getting more than MSRP these days, which is just ridiculous for ANY car. Anyhow, just adding my 2 cents. They are all good cars when it comes down to it, and you can't go wrong. Just some better deals than others. And I just like getting deals with cars and being able to negotiate.
Jeff,
Prius for 26 thousand is likely to have a GPS. Pluse, you can always trade some money, probably 1-2 thousands. So I don't buy the idea of Jetta being much cheaper.
As to the mileage, the say it is 40 mpg, because it is so on average. The reason you got 50 may be
1) You are hypermiling (then with Prius you'll get 60+)
2) You are not measuring averages properly. It can be 50 mpg 90% of the time, but on overage it is close to 40 mpg.
Wow LB, you just make assumptions and offer no real data just to shoot everyone down, don't you?
A - The comparisons were not with GPS models of the Prius. These were actual MSRP's on real stickers of local inventory. In fact, $26,700 was the CHEAPEST I saw for comparison. You can "buy" whatever the heck you want, but for my case these are true numbers that I looked up, all by myself. Hybrid inventory is low, by the way, and there are NUMEROUS reports of dealers charging more than MSRP for hybrids because they can. Based on this assessment of facts, it's probable that negotiating down 2,000 is not going to happen.
B - I wasn't hyper-miling. Cruise control, that's it.
C - When I mentioned the EPA estimate of 40mpg, that was their estimate of HIGHWAY mpg only, not combined. Also, I can do math very well, in fact. I do very complex data analysis for a living, and I can tell you, this one is not hard. It's not too hard to review data over portions of tank where the time was spent highway driving. I even took multiple samples to ensure a true distribution of the data, and could even take the std. dev. of the sample if I needed to, but that's not necessary. I got as high as 60mpg highway in 2 cases. I'm not the only one, look it up.
I don't even know why I'm investing so much time into replying to you. Clearly by your comments on this blog, you cannot believe any counter arguments based on data, and you simply make assumptions to fit your opinion. I will not continue this ridiculous contest with you after this post. Good luck, enjoy making love to your Prius.
jeff-
i live in southern california, one of the hottest hybrid markets in the world, if not the hottest, and there are great deals on the prius right now. you could have bought a prius with leather, gps, keyless entry, etc. around the same price. and dealers are willing to negotiate, i just shopped prii a few weeks ago. aside from toyota's prius price cuts, my toyota dealer was willing to negotiate another $1,000 to $2,000 lower, especially especially on the loaded models.
nonetheless, for your driving conditions, the tdi was a solid choice, especially if you don't hit much congestion on your commute.
on the highway, there is a case to be made for the tdi, but the more congestion, stop signs and stop lights in your commute, the better the prius quickly becomes.
Hi Dahcredyns,
I agree, the prius is very hot. Here in VA too, which is probably why I saw several going for higher than MSRP. And the 26,700 I quoted before was not a GPS model, but with leather seats, floormats, other. Just quoting the price I saw, not trying to argue.
But no need for me to nitpick. Even if I saved a couple grand or broke even... What you said about the TDI being a solid choice for Highway is 100% right. All the math I did suggested this. And no, I don't hit congestion it's an easy drive on the highway. Allows for good cruise control and avg 60mpg for nearly 1 hour on one stretch.
Good talking to someone reasonable instead of LB! :)
I think LB was just trying to point out that the Prius can achieve some pretty amazing fuel economy on the highway. Just as there are many TDI drivers that achieve better than EPA fuel economy, there are many Prius drivers that do the same.
I go to a hybrid event every year that also includes a hypermiling event.
Last year, for instance, the top Prius hypermiler achieved 98.7 mpg. The average for all Prius hypermilers was 74 mpg. The entire event was scientifically controlled, so these aren't embellished numbers.
So, sometimes we hybrid fans get a little bothered if we think people are underestimating the potential of hybrid technology.
Hi Dahcredyns,
I think LB makes assumptions without data, but whatever. I'm done with that "debate." I understand why you would defend hybrids, they are good cars. As I have said in my original post, I didn't walk in with any preference. I just wanted a good mpg car, that drove well and looked nice. And I didn't want to pay more than 24,000. So that's where the data took me. I was very glad to see a very driveable and powerful diesel out there, and companies should make more.
Dahc,
My another point was about the averages. Many people don't really know average figures, because their computers don't show them. So, what they have in mind is usually a 10-20% exagguration.
Nevertheless, my another point was that 40 mpg clean diesel is a good thing. I wish that many more people bought such cars. Good for all of us.
I think LB makes assumptions without data.
No exactly, Jeff. Do you have AVERAGES or what?
I wouldn't have a problem with more clean diesels. And, it won't be long and clean diesel hybrids will also start hitting the market - hopefully they'll find their way across the pond!
Jeff,
I personally do not know why you spend your time with unreasonable people. Maybe, you like it :-)
It is good that you car has great mileage, somehow it seems to beat EPA estimates. In my experience, they are pretty strict, I beat them too.
I was checking about your averages, because, believe me, some people claim figures, but don't really check them well (I have examples). How the hell would I know how exactly you measure your MPGs. I just gave the reasons WHY, that wasn't assumptions about your actual measuring methods.
As to the price, seems that my knowledge is a bit outdated, new 2010 Prius is indeed pricy. I can't believe that I paid 28.3 grand for fully loaded hybrid Camry 2 years ago, while the same dealership (Fitz) sells fully loaded Prius for 30+. Probably, people could find 2009 model, but the supply is indeed scarce. Crazy world :-)
Hi LB,
Ok, so I'm sorry if I ruffled your feathers with the "assumptions without data" comment, but it seems you just assumed I had all my data wrong. I actually do data analysis for a living (very complex, in fact) so I took that a bit personally. But, no big deal! :)
MPG averaging is clearly not an exact science. I even wonder how the "real time" setup works on the new Jetta TDI, where I can watch the MPG change as I drive. I seem to remember something similar on the Prius. It is either phenomenal at sensing extremely slight shifts in gasoline in the tank (doubtful) or it's using a model that correlates acceleration/deceleration with actual amount of gas injected, and simply takes the speed and time to measure distance, then converts it all to MPG (more likely).
I think "real-time" is a silly way to look at MPG, because for this type of data set we are more worried about sample size and distance when thinking about "gas used." So it's not so hard to take, say, 1/8th of a tank determine the miles traveled over that time period, and do a MPG calculation. This is all of course subject to the sensitivity of the gas sensor monitoring our tanks. But assuming they are accurate enough for my MPG calc, which is probably a safe bet, then I simply took several 1/8th (sometimes more, sometimes less) samples over stretches of highway driving with cruise control. Not an exact science, but I did get up to 60mpg a couple of times over highway driving. I didn't calculate my standard deviation, but I am confident I was accurate withing 1 or 2 mpg. Most of the time it's more like 50 to 55 mpg, I guess it depends highly on speed and also whether or not I have A/C going, etc. So the EPA's highway estimate of 40mpg highway appears to be too low in my opinion. The long term MPG monitor on the TDI (updates every 1/4 tank, or something like that) seems to agree, as it comes close to 40mpg OVERALL, which for me would about 70% highway, 30% city (give or take).
Anyway, not to bore everyone to tears, but I did try to do as comprehensive of an average as possible.
Jeff
Jeff,
No problem, really. I wish that many more people to switch to cars with such good mileage.
It is always interesting to see the comparison of horsepower when analyzing a TDI engine. There is an old saying ... "People buy horsepower but they drive torque". In a typical gasoline engine, peak horsepower is achieved at very high RPM (5000-6000). Engine speeds that high are not achieved in regular driving. Most people (and automatic transmissions) shift between 2 and 3 thousand RPM and the horsepower ratings at those engine speeds are not all that high. Don't get caught up in the HP rating of a vehicle. It is torque that you feel when you put the hammer down ... and TDI engines are rich in torque.
On another note, some of the hypermiling practices that I have read about are not very safe (and some are downright illegal). I'm sure that someone utilizing the same methods could obtain phenominal mpg with a Jetta TDI but I'm not going to do it.
BTW, I don't own a hybrid or a TDI. But my gasoline powered '05 Scion xB routinely gets 33 mpg in mostly city driving. Not bad for a car with the aerodynamics of a brick, LOL.
Ohh, I could not agree more. I remember Dahc mentioning cruising through stop signs. To tell you the truth, I do not particular like people who run stop signs (to put it mildly), because every second time they do it, I have a feeling that they are not going to yield. Stop signs they are for purpose, they are not equivalent to a yield sign.
My husband I set out about a month ago to choose our next car, which we wanted to be economical and practical, with good gas mileage. We had a list of about 10 cars, which we narrowed down pretty quickly to 4 cars, the 09 Prius, 2010 Honda Insight, 09 Civic, and the VW Jetta TDI. Going into the test drives, the Prius was at the top of my list. We drove those 4 cars, did more research, then drove them again. I can say that afterwards the Prius was last on our list. Not that it performed much worse than the Hondas, however it's quite a bit pricier here in Tulsa, OK, which loses points! The Prius did seem to accellerate slower than the Honda Insight, but eliminated road noise and handled better. The Jetta was surprisingly zippy, and by far, much more fun to drive. Talking to multiple owners, I have found they all regularly achieve more than 40mpg, usually around 45 they say. I was surprised at how hard the Prius was gauge, it was not responsive to pushing the petal down, even in the power mode. At times on the highway I felt I was driving a golf cart. Anyone who says the Prius has comparable power to a Jetta has simply not driven both cars. Of course MPG's are important, but if they're pretty close, then you might as well go with the advantage of far superior driving. We are going to buy a Jetta TDI this weekend, and are super excited about it. Thanks for all of your posts however, we've checked into many of the references that were posted!
"Of course MPG's are important, but if they're pretty close, then you might as well go with the advantage of far superior driving."
You make a great case for your purchase, but I'd like to point out a few things.
First, driving a hybrid takes a little time to understand. While there is no doubt the TDI offers a better drive than the Prius, the Prius performs better than you think, but you have to get used to the Hybrid Synergy Drive in order to maximize it in both terms of performance and efficiency.
Finally, the mileage is ONLY similar on the highway. If you live in an urban setting, or your commute includes regular congestion, the Prius will achieve FAR superior fuel economy compared to the Jetta.
Also, diesel fuel is price competitive today, but I'll bet the future will be much higher diesel prices compared to gasoline.
the Prius performs better than you think, but you have to get used to the Hybrid Synergy Drive in order to maximize it in both terms of performance and efficiency.
I have been renting recently. After coming back to my Camry Hybrid (which is way much livelier than Prius and almost as quick as Jetta TDI), I got a strange feeling that the car DOES NOT REACT TO ME PUSHING THE PEDAL! In a couple of days, that feeling disappeared. This is because Synergy Drive protects heavy-foot drivers from extra guzzling: if you touch it slightly, it accelerates very slowly. But if you need it go fast: push hard. I think the similar problem is also with Prius: it feels slower than it goes.
As to the mileage: speaking averages. I completely disagree that mileage of Jetta TDI would be much worse, if you live in a congested area. It will be close to 40, I bet. But it also false to say: I get 50mpg consistently on highway, therefore, my mileage is close to 50mpg. According to my experience, I get 45mpg on the highway 80-90% of the time, but my highway average is often only 38.
LB-
I'm with you on the HSD comments, but I disagree about the city fuel economy of the TDI versus the Prius.
The EPA's city cycle is not all that accurate, but it does provide a semi-comparable mean and there is no doubt that in congestion the Prius is the clear winner.
For instance, I'm in Madison, WI right now. While the traffic isn't terribly congested here, the street lights at rush hour keep the speeds under 30 and result in lots of stop and go because of streetlights.
In my Camry hybrid I'm averaging over 40 mpg. In a Prius I'd be high 50's, maybe even 60. There is no way a Jetta TDI comes close to that in such conditions.
Yes, but you are forgetting that many people travel a lot on interstate highways, say at least 30% of the time, so the overall efficiency is also pretty close. Say, I drive 50/50 with 40+ on the highway, 30+ in the city (especially bad in winter), but average is 38.
And I guess that is the essential point in this discussion. Assess what kind of driving you do.
Both cars are excellent vehicles. Each has strengths and weaknesses dependent upon your driving requirements.
I mean, despite the potential increase in diesel prices in the future, I'd love to get my hands on a Jetta TDI hybrid.
I recently shopped for both cars with a cash to clunker trade. I ended up with a 2010 Prius IV with Nav Pkg and Leather for about $29K. I paid sticker price.
My partner wanted me to buy a Jetta TDI sportwagon. I have degenerative neck disorder and its hard to get in and out of the Jetta, but pretty easy for the Prius - super easy for the Rabbit (but there is no TDI Rabbit or Golf right now).
The clincher was when I was behind a newish TDI Jetta on I-78 E going uphill near Clinton NJ and it was pushing out a LOT OF BLACK SOOT.
If you like Technology and I do, the Prius is a technical marvel and is loaded with technology like no other car. We have exceeded 50mpg with little to no effort.
Car dealers are still bad and the Jetta is a great car compared to most. I think anyone choosing between the two can't go wrong, but most are still looking for massive HP and third rows seats like the car mags push.
There is NO comparison. The jetta TDI is better looking inside, better looking outside, and simply outdrives the prius in every scenario. Plus, the sportwagen has tons more space, which I will use camping with the family and dogs.
Add in the need to change the battery at some point to your consideration of environmental effects, and the fact that many of the older jetta diesels are running fine at 200K plus miles, and the value of a bit more mileage pales.
Today, diesel is cheaper than gas, and in fact, if taxed at the same amount, diesel would be much cheaper than gasoline. It takes much less work to refine diesel, so outside of a shortage of refinery capacity, diesel is likely to be cheaper than gas most of the time going forward.
buy whatever you want, I don't even care about commute mileage I generally ride my bicycle to work, but I'm not driving a golf cart to get a bit more mileage.
RA-
I'm sorry but the Prius kicks the TDI's ass in city congestion. That is simply a fact.
On the highway, I agree, it's hard to argue against the the TDI. Fuel economy is relatively the same, but the TDI's performance is superior.
Also, just today I was talking to a guy that has 192,000 miles on his Prius and its still kicking ass.
There are many Prii on the road that have been on the road for a decade and have hundreds of thousands of miles on them without a battery change. And Consumer Reports data, for instance, regarding this question is crystal clear.
The battery, quite simply, has not been any bit of an issue. Moreover, the battery technology since the first Prius has evolved greatly.
Also, your diesel refining argument is dead wrong. If the US started using only diesel, diesel prices would skyrocket.
Because of US gasoline consumption, diesel is largely a byproduct, however, if the US were only refining diesel, the costs of diesel would increase significantly.
The Union of Concerned Scientists, for instance, has covered this angle in the past. And they claim diesel refining is more dirty and energy intensive than gasoline refinement, unless pollution of any sort is of no concern.
Dahc,
I would add that in certain cases batteries might fail, but they don't fail completely: just a few certain faulty cells can be replaced. Honda did have some battery issues with earlier model, but as far as I understand they allowed to drain the battery below 20% level.
As to biking to work: I like it very much as a recreational activity. However, biking on a highway (or just any busy road) is outright stupid and unplesant experience.
I just bought a 2010 VW TDI Sportwagen. I think a careful analysis of total environmental impact of these new diesels compared to hybrids will favor the TDI. I'll get 400,000 miles on a TDI and excellent mileage. The car is fun to drive (I got the manual transmission) with lots of space. Battery technology concerns me, especially the mining of nickel (http://news.mongabay.com/2009/0122-madagascar_mine.html). I'm glad I chose the TDI Sportwagen.
I'll take the TDI Anyday over the Prius. Can't compare the two. The TDI is a car, the Prius is a golf cart.
Hippie scum. Why do you so defend the bad investment you all made in your garbage hybrid cars. I roll with the Jetta TDI because
1, I like to drive
2, It is insanely safe
3, It will last forever (unlike prius)
4, Great fuel economy
5, Better handling
6, Superior interior
7, No carbon footprint on battery
8, Significanly higher resale than the prius (BTW good luck trading in or selling that POS on anything besides another hybrid)
And the nail in the coffin for all you hybrid lovin queers. My car has 40,000 miles on no fuel. It runs on vegetable oil bitches. Pump that into your Hybrid and screw it. HA!
wow. i think the tdi is a good car, but some of you tdi fans are simply retarded.
first, nickel complaints?
give me a break. do some objective research, especially into all the other applications nickel is used for.
to complain about nickel batteries, when the far majority of nickel is used in every day products that ALL of you TDI drivers use is simply moronic.
afraid of battery technology. i guess you better give up your cell phone, your laptop, etc.
i could go on, but why? why fight with cavemen that have no vision of the future.
every single automaker in the world believes that either pure battery EVs or fuel cell HYBRIDS are the future.
EVERYONE of them, even Volkswagen.
and vegetable oil?
give me a break. yeah, vegetable oil can replace petroleum!?
too many diesel fumes i guess.
resale value?
i recently tried buying a used prius for a friend here in LA. a used prius costs almost as much as a new one.
but who cares about the real facts?
the future is coming regardless of your provincial short term thinking. certainly, clean diesel provides some short term help, but the upside of battery technology has only barely been tapped.
i remember when i was a kid and i wanted a computer. instead my mom gave me a typewriter and a calculator. at the time, for the cost, the typewriter and calculator were a better deal, no doubt.
today? please.
hybrid and battery technology only emerged in the market a decade ago and toyota, for instance, has cut costs and weight significantly each generation.
battery range and power are increasing, as cost is decreasing much the same way Moore's law did for computers. that's reality.
and btw, i plan on keeping my hybrid for several hundred thousand miles as well.
already, there are hybrids with more than 200,000 miles on them without a battery replacement.
in the future, replacing the batteries won't be big deal. in fact, it will probably be common, and i'll have 400,000 miles on my hybrid that is powered by home's solar array.
but keep on guzzling the diesel. forget the fact that much of it comes for countries that fund terrorism with their oil profits. besides, i'm sure that situation will improve once china and india et al start consuming petroleum at the rate the US does.
the future, i'm sure, will be funky dory as long as you keep sucking in the diesel fumes.
I'm not sure of the age group of those posting, but I can surmise the maturity level of the last two authors. Both the TDI and Prius posters need to grow up and both need to get the facts straight.
The TDI cannot run on vegetable oil. VW specs no more than 5% biofuel in the TDI because of the emissions control system.
For the Prius poster, let's look at some facts about nickel.
"Industrial machinery is the largest end use category for nickel (25%), followed by buildings and infrastructure (21%) and transportation (20%)."
Source: "Anthropogenic Nickel Cycle: Insights into Use, Trade, and Recycling" Barbara K. Reck*, Daniel B. Müller, Katherine Rostkowski and T. E. Graedel Center for Industrial Ecology, Yale University, New Haven, Connecticut 06511
Second, cell phones use lithium ion batteries which have a far more benign impact on the environment than nickel.
The use of batteries in vehicles for gas hybrids, diesel hybrids, plug in hybrids and EV's is the future. However, I was buying a car this year, not ten years from now. My alternatives today suggest that the TDI is a more environmentally friendly choice and is far more practical than the Prius.
The Prius is also a good choice, especially for urban commuters, but the TDI is all around a better vehicle.
As for diesel contributing to terrorism, we could eliminate all Mid-East imports if more diesel was used in this country. Did you know that oil refiners in the US actually export diesel fuel to Europe?
The good news in all of this, is that the automobile industry is finally undergoing dramatic change for the better, and the planet will benefit. We should all be pleased with that.
Ralph-
And, NiMH has always been an interim technology until lithium - that more benign battery technology as you call it - was made more cost-effective. Toyota has been testing lithium almost as long as NiMH.
And at least two different Toyota lithium hybrids are coming in the next couple of years, and the third generation Prius was almost lithium.
However, if Toyota had waited for lithium to become cost-effective, such vehicles might NEVER have happened. Without significantly higher gas prices, no automaker was willing to take the risk on ANY battery-powered vehicle, as there were no suppliers for the technology.
Thanks to NiMH hybrids, numerous battery suppliers have been developed - most developing NiMH simply as a gateway to lithium and other battery technologies.
Ultimately, NiMH has always been an interim technology, but a technology that has proven reliable, relatively cost-effective, and the battery packs are almost 100 percent recyclable - the nickel certainly is. Moreover, such vehicles have significantly helped shape the American consumer regarding fuel economy and the potential for change.
Up to 80 percent of new US consumers in the US would now consider a hybrid. Ten years ago almost no one would have.
As for diesel ending US dependence on OPEC oil, I think you're being very unrealistic considering the global nature of the energy markets, minimally. Even if theoretically possible, add in the necessary cost to achieve this goal and you've probably wiped out any advantage that diesel efficiency provides.
Nonetheless, I largely agree with your ultimate point.
For the record, MIT, Argonne National Labs and Carnegie Mellon’s Lifecycle Assessment Group etc. have studied the life cycle of NiMH hybrids and they concluded, as has Toyota's decade of life cycle assessments, that NiMH hybrids are still better than a conventional sized gas vehicle regarding pollution. And, overall, NiMH batteries cause less harm to the environment than does your standard lead-acid battery. Moreover, there is still great upside for making these vehicles even more environmentally friendly.
Here's the article.
Also, here's an article with links to several major stories that started the "myth" that a Hummer is cleaner than the Prius and challenges them. In fact, the original story of this myth has been retracted.
Ultimately, NiMH hybrids, according to the science aren't just a step forward, but just a first step that will lead to even greater steps.
Still, today, there are many driving scenarios that make a TDI better than a Prius and many that make a Prius better than a TDI.
However, the impact of the NiMH battery pack is not an issue. In fact, it's ultimately a plus for hybrids.
Glad to see the more rational post.
Regarding the use of diesel to lower reliance on Mid East oil, please see this link:
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_ep00_im0_mbblpd_a.htm
We currently import 1.5M barrels of oil a day from Saudia Arabia (according to US Dept. of Energy).
If 1/3 of US cars used efficient diesel, we could save that amount (see video link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wk7fSIDPZOg). So we don't eliminate Mid-East imports at this level, but we make a huge dent.
Regarding NiMH batteries, I am ok that the nickel is recycled. My concern is with the mining and its impact on the environment.
One of the biggest harms is on biodiversity - because habitat is destroyed by the mining process. This is largely overlooked by the focus on global warming. Today, on the 150 year anniversary of Darwin's "Origin of the Species", we should pay attention to this - follow this link to this morning's BBC podcast on this subject -
http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=135067274
Finally, who cares about a Hummer.
Ultimately, I disagreed with a bit of your battery angle, but I wasn't really attacking your post. It was the post before yours that set me off.
I'll definitely check out your links.
I'm a hybrid fanatic, but I'm a bigger fanatic against foreign oil, especially OPEC oil. So, I absolutely support any technology that can help, as long as it doesn't lead to other serious problems.
And, in the interim, one technology won't do the job. I'm all for using clean diesel, even natural gas (as long as it won't pollute ground water) as tools to disrupt the energy markets in our favor as we strive towards some form of energy independence.
Regarding pollution
A number of the life cycle studies of NiMH do include the mining and refining of Nickel, so I'm not that worried about that issue.
If there is an issue along those lines that worries me, it's coal powered plug-in vehicles and the damage often caused by coal mining.
And, I agree, why care about the Hummer? Only brought it up because one of the original stories that started the Prius-NiMH-pollution thread pitted the Hummer versus the Prius.
I'm shopping for a new car, and the Prius and Jetta TDI are atop my list. Each has strengths and weaknesses, but nickel use isn't a weakness for the Prius, rare earth metals are:
Jack Lifton, an independent commodities consultant and strategic metals expert, calls the Prius "the biggest user of rare earths of any object in the world."
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE57U02B20090831
re: rare earth metals?
so what?
currently, there is plenty of supply. the only reason the commodity markets have spiked is because China is currently hording it rare earth metals.
certainly, eventually, if hybrids and plug-ins become more common, this could become an issue; however, there are large rare metal deposits in america, for instance, that can be mined.
ultimately, there is no need to worry about a shortage of such rare earths. really, the main issue regarding rare earth metals is whether the US wants to be dependent upon foreign rare earths, or whether it wants to mine its own.
Rare earth metals and China - does this not mirror foreign oil dependancy in some ways?
I drive an old passat TDI to work (30 miles) and it returns 50mpg(imperial) in winter and up to 67mpg in summer, I can't imagine a hybrid significantly improving on that at an average 50mph with sustained 70mph runs between speed limits. Hybrids have a place, but are definetely not for everyone. what I don't like is being told what to do by the green lobby and being taxed to hell by UK PLC using the environment as an excuse. I choose to ride a motorcycle for enjoyment and that returns less than 20MPG Imperial (16.5 MPG US) on super if ridden properly, if anyone tries to stop me doing so I will react strongly. I suspect it is this pressure and taxation that turns some people to knock the hybrid and those who buy it, otherwise it would just be viewed as an oddity for tree huggers and dismissed by those same people who knoock what is a perfectly good car. That said, I suspect I would buy a Jetta over the Prius if I could afford it as I like the torque you get from a TDI.
yes lets all pull it out and measure up lol. I drive a 09 tdi, and when I rent a car on business I only rent a prius.
Drive a prius if you drive stop and go traffic (44+mpg, TDI 38mpg)
If you drive on the highway get the tdi. It is that simple. TDI hwy is 50+mpg (prius 47mpg), and this is not hypermiling by any means. It is keeping the speed between 68-72mph.
They compete for different drivers in different situations no matter how much they are marketed against each other. They both have big plus and a big minus, on opposite end. Too bad we can't put em together......
beat-
eventually it will happen, at least in europe.
Wow, horses for courses folks!
Can we agree it's just nice to see some really efficient cars on the roads vs. 5 years ago when it was all Hummers, Titans, Excursions, Suburbans etc with one driver in them?
I like my TDi because I need a wagon and I live in a rural area (55mph minimum everywhere).
If I lived in the city, I'd likely have a Prius. Well, actually, I'd probably not own a car at all.
Regarding the bio in the TDi - yeah, you could actually do it even though VW says it's a no-no... And they have a good reason for saying no; bio absorbs water and water getting compressed to 28K psi in the rail is going to spell doom and unmitigated failure for your HPFP and injectors at the least.
Bio is fine for the old IDI motors. I wouldn't chance it on a $12K common rail motor.
The VW buyers know they are put together to run forever.. The Prius, well.. it may keep buzzing along, until the first squirrel get hit crossing the street and totals it out. Hyundai has a diesel hybrid version of the new Sonata they are working on that gets 78MPG. Dodge has Caliber diesels in Europe getting about 67MPG.. 50 on a Prius.. not impressive. For as little car you get.. you should get over 100MPG as compensation for the car.
not in the city awyseguy.
in my urban commute the Prius blows away the VW. that's simply a fact that cannot be denied.
btw - have you ever been in a prius? your suggestion that it is so small compared to the TDI seems to suggest that you are just making assumptions.
moreover, why is hyundai hybrid technology so much more reliable than the prius?
the prius has been around for over a decade. check out the JD Power and Consumer Reports data. 100,000s of miles with virtually no problems or battery replacements after more than a million sales.
the jetta tdi is a great car. if you are mostly a highway commuter, i'd probably buy a TDI as well. but for city commuters, the Prius is a great choice.
I've been doing a lot of research on many cars and have pretty much decided on the TDI. My comment was to relay what I found about about the EPA listing the cars MPG at 30/41. Apparently the EPA's method for testing all vehicles MPG is to always start the test with a cold engine which is much or all of the reason for lower posted numbers. Diesels do take longer to warm up to temperature where they run more efficient. From everything I've found it seems like most people are getting something more along the lines of 36/47 for averages.
No doubt, last anon, that despite recent improvements, EPA fuel economy estimates can still be quite inaccurate.
Like a diesel needing to warm up, the need to warm up the engine and/or cool down cabin temperature can also have a huge effect on hybrid fuel economy.
Likewise, in tough urban congestion, hybrids can blow away the EPA estimates of 50 mpg gallon. Independent tests, for instance, showed that the second generation Prius - less fuel efficient than the current edition - could achieve almost 60 mpg in urban Chicago commutes.
Similarly, many diesel drivers have reported far above EPA fuel economy numbers during highway driving.
Ultimately, both the Prius and the Jetta TDI are two of the BEST vehicles can one can pay if you have any fuel economy concerns.
And, while there are extra costs, if we combined these technologies, as will eventually happen, some pretty amazing fuel economy numbers could be achieved.
For a very long time I've longed for a diesel hybrid that is fully biofuel flexible, with a plug-in option for those whom can regularly and easily plug-in.
Nonetheless, I'm a huge hybrid fan. However, if I were to buy a non-hybrid, without doubt it would be something like the Jetta TDI.
Dahc,
talking about anecdotal evidence. I am easily getting 38 mpg on average from my Camry. On highway, it is often 40-45 mpg. I am pretty sure that Prius is at least 15 mpg better.
Also, as far as I can see, TDI drivers don't have good measurement tools, i.e. their computer cannot give them yearly averages. Therefore, they most likely to overestimate fuel economy.
Last, but not least. Speaking in terms of emissions, 40 mpg with a diesel engine, is only 35 mpg gasoline equivalent, because 1 gallon of diesel produce by 14% more emissions. Its average prices, is also about 10% higher.
In a congested city, the difference is typically much bigger: Jetta will have around 30 mpgs (26 mpg gasoline emission equivalent), while Prius at least 50. And, man, we all inhale emissions, not miles per gallons!
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