$10,000 extra for a Toyota Prius?
Just not worth it?I love the Toyota Prius. I mean I LOVE the Toyota Prius. Yet, at MSRP the Prius isn't the best deal for everyone, however, it is an especially good deal for urban drivers.
Still, is the Prius worth an extra $3,000, the amount some dealerships are adding to the cost of the Prius (more on Prius markups)? How about a $5,000 dealer markup, for nothing, other than a dealership taking advantage of supply and demand?
Still a good deal?
Well, how about a $5,000 markup and $5,000 worth of dealer, and highly dealer-profitable, add-ons? That was the cost of the only available Prius at my local dealership on Saturday - yes, I live in area with extremely high Prius demand, but still, can consumers justify such costs in fuel savings?
Labels: Hybrid Vehicles, toyota prius
posted by Dahcredyns at
8:55 AM
25 Comments:
Do not buy a Prius with any markup greater than MSRP. Instead, hold on to your current car and wait until the deatlers offer a Prius for MSRP or less than MSRP. Ford will be offering a Ford Fusion hybrid and Mercury Milan hybrid by the end of 2008, so hopefully Ford can absorb excess hybrid demand so that the Prius can be priced accordingly.
If you really want a Prius, just buy a 1999 Chevy Prizm or 1999 Toyota Corolla. Wait 12 months and buy in summer of 2009.
well, i'd like to have some faith in ford, but i'm worried they will only sell 25,000 hybrid cars per year, much like the escape hybrid.
while i hope ford proves me wrong, i'm more excited about honda's new hybrids, particularly because honda appears ready to sell at least 100,000 hybrids, maybe even more, per year starting sometime in 2009.
unless a business lease is involved - which is deductible - i can't really advocate the purchase of ANY hybrid vehicles today, unless its for MSRP, or less.
also, while i want to hammer toyota on this issue, its hard since no other automaker is even in toyota's hybrid league - that's even more disappointing.
when it comes to hybrids, toyota is becoming disappointing, but every other automaker already sucks.
in my opinion, consumers should just boycott automakers altogether. buy a scooter. walk, or take public transportation for a few months. its time for consumers to demand more from automakers, and especially their dealerships..
David,
Thanks for the strategy tips. BTW, why the 99 model Prizms and Corolla? Particularly good year for the Corolla platform?
I hope this blog puts together a good overview on hybrid buying strategies for different time horizons. What to do if you want a Hybrid now? In 3 months? 6 months? Within a year?
I HAD been planning on buying a Prius in July/August. I live in West Los Angeles, so once I learned about the Prius shortages on this blog, I realized I had better play it smart. So, discussions on timing, non-Prius options on the horizon, new vs used, and other strategies would really help people like me!
For example, I didn't know that a Fusion Hybrid was coming out in 2008. I had originally just planned to wait until the 2009 Prius came out, which I thought would be September 2008. I figured that would bring a nice increase in Prius production, and also people would put their used hybrids up for sale. I hoped that would reduce prices on Prius' and I agree that a Fusion Hybrid can be a Prius substitute for many people, including myself, if for no other reason than it is a domestic car!
About Ford's lack of commitment to hybrids and their limited production runs, maybe it is aggregate Hybrid availability that matters. 25,000 Fusions and Escapes is potentially 50,000 Ford hybrids total, which means less pressure on Prius demand, and so forth. If we had 20 different small production run hybrids, while that is unfortunate and inefficient on some levels, that is still a lot of hybrids total. :)
alcatholic-
speaking of aggregate availability, there is also the saturn vue hybrid, which will come in a dual mode hybrid version before the end of this year, so that could be another 25,000 or so.
in terms of an updated hybrid buyers guide, that is something i've been working on, but, it doesn't look good for hybrid buyers, for either used or new hybrids. if gas prices stay at this level, all these upcoming hybrids might still not meet demand.
still, the one thing i would advocate today is a 'prius vacation' - sounds like a new post topic.
there are still dealerships outside of major metro areas where a prius can be purchased at msrp, maybe even a little below. is there any reason for buyers to go to any of these places? that's the key.
if you could squeeze a vacation or business into one of these markets, you could pick up a prius and drive home, rather than flying. obviously, this won't work for most people, but, for some it might be the only way to a good deal in the short term.
also, for us in socal....we're pretty much screwed.
i was shopping a camry hybrid this weekend, and my salesperson tried to justify the $3000 markup because jason alexander had just tested it. for the hollywood community, owning a hybrid has become a necessity, and they can easily afford the markups - maybe if they go on strike again, we'll have a chance! (just kidding. please don't go on strike. we need that money in this community.)
But won't the 2009 Prius launch in the Fall(?) relieve a lot of this Prius demand/supply unbalance? In other words, don't we only have to hold out until that launch?
i've been having that conversation with myself for several weeks now.
say prices on a 2004, or later, prius decrease significantly. so a prius with a 150,000 miles is only worth $13,000 - which is still a lot. well, you could buy that prius, convert it into a plug-in prius for $10,000 (which includes a 3 year warranty) and get better fuel economy than the 2009 toyota prius, but possibly save a few thousand dollars, or maybe much more since we don't know the prices on the 2009 prius.
ultimately, developments in plug-in hybrid technology might keep the used hybrid market very well valued for many years. that's an angle that i'm sure many are hoping to exploit.
thus, if i could find a prius a little below msrp, today, i'd snatch it up fast. that might be the best deal for a few years. if not, then i'd wait, but be ready to act.
just before the 2009 launch might be the biggest 'general' time to shop since many will want to see what's next. but will many available? not if supplies keep decreasing and waiting lists keep building.
of course, gas prices could fall significantly.....
2010 prius sold in 2009, i meant to say.
also, with congress, saudi arabia, etc. talking about oil, and some traders gone wild in the oil futures market, there is the possibility of a nice pull back in oil prices. if that pullback hits pump prices, then that might also be a buying opportunity.
buying a hybrid, especially the prius, is like trade trading in the stock market. crazy.
For me it was just not a good choice. I went today and looked for a 2007 Hybrid Toyota Prius and realized that I would be down sizing from my 2007 Camry plus end up costing me more than my Camry. I have decided to just wait a little bit longer when hybrid cars are more the norm, maybe I will get a better price for one by then.
dahcredyns wrote:
"thus, if i could find a prius a little below msrp, today, i'd snatch it up fast. that might be the best deal for a few years. if not, then i'd wait, but be ready to act.
just before the 2009 launch might be the biggest 'general' time to shop since many will want to see what's next...."
I was talking about a 2009 model that will presumably launch in Fall 2008. Why buy today before the Fall 2008 model comes out?
For the second paragraph, I think I understand that you are saying that the best time to buy will be before the launch of the 2010 Prius in 2009 sometime. And presumably that will be in Spring 2009, so that is not too long to wait at all.
Did I get that right? But I'm still not sure why I should buy now before the Fall 2008 model comes out?
Thanks!
Hi,
The reason why I recommened a 99 Chevy Prizm or 99 Corolla is the car would be dirt cheap, considering it is already 9 years old! Plus, the Prizm/Corolla is very fuel efficient. That way, you don't have to break the bank waiting for your next hybrid purchase (which will probably in 2009 for finanically conservative folks).
So, in my humble opinion,
SCENARIO ONE: you're willing to wait for a hybrid until 2009: keep your current car or buy a used 7 to 9 year old Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, Chevy Prizm.
SCENARIO TWO: you want a new car but are impatient about hybrids: bite the bullet and pass on hybrids for now; Toyota Corolla, Honda Civic, Honda Fit, Nissan Versa.
I too am more excited about the Honda hybrids than the Ford hybrids. I hope that enough hybrids get on the market at the same time (Ford Fusion, new Honda hybrid, 2009 Prius) that the hybrid consumer gets more choice and meets the new hybrid demand.
Good luck to all hybrid shoppers! I feel lucky that my 2008 Camry dies on me in April. I got a used Honda Accord Hybrid at the end of April. If my Camry died in May or June, I probably wouldn't have had the opportunity to buy a hybrid!
sometime in 2009, toyota will launch the third generation of the of the hybrid synergy drive. the third generation prius, for example, will debut at NAIAS 2009, which is in january, but it will probably be considered a 2010 model. it probably won't be more than a few months later that toyota will begin selling this vehicle, which will also coincide with its battery production increase.
the third generation prius will be a bit bigger, faster and more fuel efficient than current 2nd generation hybrids - basically, those launched since 2004. since then, little about the prius has changed.
however, just before the 2010 model launches - possibly in early 2009 - i wouldn't be surprised to see a lull in 2nd generation prius sales - both new and used - due to 3rd generation anticipation.
nonetheless, all of the 2nd generation prius hybrids are great candidates for plug-in hybrid conversions. consequently, this fact could keep their resale value high, even as the 3rd generation is about to launch.
i guess it comes down to gas prices. for example, if a hurricane hits the gulf as katrina did, hybrid interest could skyrocket far beyond supply - even as the third generation launches. or, if israel attacks iran, or vice versa, etc.
thus, my educated guess is that, chances are, waiting will be beneficial, but that isn't a guaranteed choice by any means.
i think that's pretty sound logic david. with dealer markups, the cars you suggest are just more economical for most consumers. i hate saying that, but it is what it is.
OK, thank you for spelling all that out for me. And I think I fully understand your analysis now.
At the risk of betraying my lack of sophistication, I notice you don't mention a Fall 2008 Prius model sold as a 2009 model. Do you not expect one? And do you then not expect a new production run that will greatly increase Prius supply in the fall?
Thanks!
PS Where else but the internet can one engage with such experts to answer such personal questions. I hope this is of interest to your other readers, as well.
And thanks David for your help, too.
just the other day one of toyota's top execs stated that their new battery lines wouldn't be operational until 2009. that inclines me to believe that toyota's new battery plants are being coordinated to begin production for the third gen launch.
until the third gen launches, i wouldn't be surprised to supply decrease even further. i hope that doesn't happen, but it wouldn't surprise me.
Both Honda and Toyota are also working on fuel-cell cars.
Incidentally, the three-wheelers for pizza or the like seem to emit much more smothery exhaust fumes.
Door-to-door pizza or fume?
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A lot of talk and speculation. Analysis is paralysis.
and haste makes waste.
there is analysis and speculation because it was asked for during the course of this thread and it was pertinent to the topic.
and, honestly, anyone whom thinks analysis is paralysis is acting a fool.
Got it, thanks. If there is no 2009 Prius coming out in late 2008, that would be an interesting data point. I'll stay tuned.
they're probably calling the current prii 2009 models, but the year won't mean anything until the third gen models launch. i would think we'll know a lot more in january because of the debut.
i'll try not to speculate and analyse too much before then! just kidding.
One last thing, to get my head on straight here after this thread.
As far as the rest of 2008, assuming Prius, Escape, and Civic hybrid production stays as is, what additional hybrid production is coming? Just the Ford Fusion and Saturn Vue?
Thanks!
It seems to me that if the dealer wants a $3000 - $5000 markup then go somewhere else. For $2000 you could fly anywhere in the country, have a nice weekend vacation, and as part of the vacation purchase yourself a new car. The only real downside is that you'd have to drive it home, but you could take your time and see the sights. If you're preordering I would think you could make most of the arrangements over the phone and do the final signatures when you arrive.
a "prius vacation" i've been calling it, and i think its a great idea. yes, it won't work for many, but it could work for many savy consumer/vacationers.
alcatholic-
sorry, i missed this post earlier.
the saturn vue hybrid, i was told by GM execs. just a couple of months ago, will launch this year.
chrysler will launch the aspen hybrid and the durango hybrid in august.
i'm still not sure i believe that ford will do anything this year, and there won't be any supply if they do (please prove me wrong on this ford!)
The Memphis Dealers want you to put a cash deposit down (non refundable), and wait a year for delivery at a price undetermined, in a color you probably wont get, with whatever options are on the vehicle. The amazing thing is that they have a sucker list already going.
how much is the non-refundable deposit?
i'll tell you, i've been to dozens of dealerships in LA and Orange Counties the last couple of weeks and most dealerships don't give a crap about consumers.
However, there are good dealerships out there that are being fair with consumers. It's a small percent from what I've experienced, but they are out there.
Shop around and walk away. A good dealership will put you on their list without any deposit. Even at a good dealership, however, a refundable deposit can expedite things because they assume you are more serious.
From my experience, look for small, family run dealerships that have been around a long time. They more commonly value customer service and repeat business.
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