Hybrids: Has GM leapt past Toyota and Honda?
It's not just about the Volt?I received an e-mail yesterday asking whether I thought that GM had leapt past Toyota and Honda in hybrid vehicles in the last year, as some believe based upon GM's dual mode hybrid vehicles and, more importantly, the ongoing development of the Chevy Volt.
My initial response was absolutely not, but as I contemplated this question, I realized that maybe GM had jumped past everyone in the auto industry. Well, everyone except Toyota. Read more....
Labels: chevy malibu hybrid, Chevy Volt electric vehicle concept, Hybrid Vehicles, plug-in hybrid vehicles, saturn vue hybrid, toyota prius
posted by Dahcredyns at
7:56 AM
14 Comments:
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I received an e-mail yesterday asking whether I thought that GM had leapt past Toyota and Honda in hybrid vehicles in the last year, as some believe based upon GM's dual mode hybrid vehicles and, more importantly, the ongoing development of the Chevy Volt.
My initial response was absolutely not, but as I contemplated this question, I realized that maybe GM had jumped past everyone in the auto industry. Well, everyone except Toyota.
Certainly, in terms of Toyota, GM's dual mode hybrid technology does offer some advantages over Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive, but it also offers some disadvantages.
In terms of advantages, GM's dual mode technology provides full-sized SUV and truck functionality, such as towing and payloads. This functionality and capability could be huge when GM adds the dual mode hybrid powertrain to full-sized trucks later this year because, at this point, Toyota cannot compete with GM in truck functionality.
On the other hand, in terms of disadvantages, the dual mode hybrid powertrain adds more in costs, and many SUV and truck drivers don't necessarily need dual mode functionality, such as those that live in urban areas that don't ever tow anything. But, the real disadvantage of the dual mode hybrid powertrain, however, is that it doesn't really scale well in into smaller cars or sedans. The dual mode powertrain was specifically designed for larger vehicles and large vehicle functionality.
Since the Toyota Prius and the Toyota Camry hybrid are by far the best selling hybrid vehicles in America, this is an important consideration and disadvantage.
Currently, to address this problem, GM offers mild hybrids, such as the Chevy Malibu hybrid, but really, in terms of hybrid cars, GM is largely thinking Chevy Volt, and it is the Chevy Volt that has many believing that GM has surpassed even Toyota in hybrid technology.
Here, I have to say hold on.
The Chevy Volt is a concept that is still a few years away from possible reality, and the Volt is based on complex and, currently, expensive technology. So, cost-effectiveness is going to be a huge issue.
Furthermore, lithium - a key to both the Volt and to plug-in hybrids - might make more conventional types of hybrids, such as the Prius, much more fuel efficient and much more cost-effective compared to plug-in hybrids. Consequently, consumers might just prefer this cheaper option. As most know, predicting the future is far from science.
Still, if the future is plug-in hybrids, then GM does appear to have some advantages. Not only is GM developing the Chevy Volt, but it is also developing dual mode plug-in hybrid vehicles, such as a plug-in version of the Saturn Vue hybrid.
Of course, Toyota's current hybrid success cannot be taken too lightly and Toyota might be just as prepared as GM to deliver some kind of vehicle, such as the Volt, but not as willing as GM to discuss such a concept. Likewise, a plug-in Prius might make far more sense for most urbanites compared to a Vue plug-in with towing capabilities.
Ultimately, Toyota is still the undisputed hybrid king, by far. Hybrid sales make that point quite clearly.
Conceptually, GM looks prepared to challenge Toyota in hybrids - sometime in the future. But concept versus reality is quite a different monster. Nonetheless, GM has given fans hope and on paper that hope is founded, but now it's time to put rubber to the road.
In the end, however, I don't anticipate GM leaping past Toyota in hybrid technology any time soon, but GM could certainly put itself in healthy competition with Toyota for hybrid dominance - the ideas are on paper and the talk is there.
The question is, therefore, can GM walk the walk?
I put very little value on what GM has accomplished. Placing a hybrid system that frankly benefits us overall very little in huge vehicles that are still very inefficient is pointless and does not address the issues at hand.
PLUS...GM can make it look like it's doing a big deal but let's think about it. GM chose SUV's to incorporate their hybrids because they simply cannot make a hybrid cheaply and efficiently enough to place such a system in its smaller vehicles. SUV's have such huge profit margins due to their extremely simple and poor construction, that masking the true cost of a hybrid system will be easy.
It's easy to mask not only the cost but also the lack of performance there of. Making an overweight piece of crap even more overweight...who will notice?
Look at the hybrid system in the Malibu or Aura...WHAT A JOKE.
Toyota and Honda have embarrassed GM for years with their new technology...and I think in the next few years, Bob Lutz is going to look like Bob Dutz...an even big douche than he already is.
Put down the Kool-Aid, dehcredyns. I suggest you go to a showroom, not a press release or an auto show. GM isn't doing anyone any favors masking the truth about their dire position. Americans already can't deal with the reality of Peak Oil and global warming. GM's charades aren't helping. They'd get far more sympathy from doubters like me if they were realistic and stopped herding the sheep over the cliff.
Honda is going to be putting its FCX Clarity on lease in California this coming summer. As in a production ready (more or less) fuel cell car. That's right!
GM shit
I've test driven every hybrid that GM makes and GM's hybrids are not crap.
In terms of its mild hybrid technology, such as the Aura, Vue and Malibu hybrids, I'm not a huge fan, but the vehicles do increase fuel economy by 10 - 25 percent based on vehicle and driving conditions at an affordable price.
While that isn't nearly enough, if every automaker made every vehicle, minimally, a mild hybrid, it would have a huge impact on US fuel consumption.
Additionally, GM's dual mode hybrid technology is top notch. Yes, it was designed specifically for large vehicles and large vehicle functionality - something that most Americans don't really need. Still, the technology is top notch and it more sophisticated than even Toyota's. However, again, it's more sophisticated because it provides extra fuctionality - extra fuctionality that is questionable for most American drivers, so GM's hybrid technology is not as cost-effective in my opinion as Toyota's - at least not for cars and sedans.
Likewise I've driven some of GM's fuel cell vehilces multiple times, so I'm quite confident that GM can compete with Honda in FCVs. Honda might be a little ahead, but not significantly.
Finally, I claimed that on paper, GM is heading the right direction. A few years ago, on paper, GM was not headed in the right direction. Thus, conceptually, GM is doing the right things. GM might just turn into the GM of old, or maybe GM has finally seen the light.
Having interviewed many major executives at GM, including Noz's favorite, Bob Lutz, I am confident that GM realizes that it needs to change if it is to survive. While Bob Lutz might pooh-pooh global warming, the ex-Marine is very concerned about foreign oil dependency.
Still, retooling production lines takes years, even when the UAW is fully cooperating.
Again, I understand the GM-hate. To a large extent they deserve every bit of it, but, again, what automaker that sells vehicles in the US is really doing much more?
Toyota is the only automaker in the last few years to make 'significant' gains - just a couple percent - in fleet fuel economy, thanks to Prius success, but Toyota's continued push into larger trucks and suvs will probably wipe out those gains in the next couple of years since Toyota isn't planning a significant increase in hybrid production in the next few years.
Why? Is even mighty, profit-filled Toyota dragging its feet?
Thus, I'd argue that every automaker is failing America, every single one.
Instead of focusing on the lesser of evils, I just focus on technology. In terms of technology GM is making moves. I wish they were doing more. I wish they were moving faster, but I wish those same things of EVERY automaker.
Dahc,
I think other automakers have done ALOT more than GM has.
Honda, while it may not have the best hybrid option out of all of them, has consistently had probably the best fleet fuel mileage around. It has ALWAYS made cars designed around efficiency, lightweight philosophy, and excellent engineering. GM doesn't come close to any of those points.
Plus, Honda has always been very innovative and has taken risks others have not dared to...why? Because they are confident in their technology and abilities.
Toyota can be credited too BUT the problem with Toyota is that it plays both hands at the same time...which has turned me off of them. A Tundra and then a Prius? What's the point?
I have to also add that GM claiming things on paper does no one any good whatsoever. We don't need any more things done in principle and concept...we need products that change things...not what they may or may not do.
I think what you'll see is firms like Honda moving far ahead of GM. Well...it already is. But it'll be even more evident.
I've not drive this dual mode system you speak of...but put it into the perspective of timeline. It's taken GM this long...and with much reverse engineering I'm sure...to perhaps match Toyota's system perhaps in performance...but not in efficiency and packaging.
As I said earlier, GMs choice for putting these systems in large, high profit, low cost vehicles is because they have no choice. They simply do not have the technology and know-how to compete on a meaningful level.
The fact that an ex-Marine is at the helm of GM is a big red flag to me. It's the same as placing Cheney at the helm of a solar energy firm. It's a disaster. We need functional, scientific, intelligent people who have a clue to be in charge.
The only time things will REALLY truly change is when people who have no affiliation to war, military, security, etc., become heads of companies and take charge. Until then, a change in philosophy driven by faith, conflict, national security will only lead us to even worse situations.
Noz-
I pointed out Honda, and there is no doubt that Honda has been the best in terms of fuel economy, etc, but they still haven't been good enough.
Listen, I don't like most of GM's auto business today - I hate large SUVs and large trucks, except for people that really need their functionality, which is a small percent of the people that actually drive them.
In fact, I don't really like the auto business in general, perhaps they are all just carsalesmen in fancier suits, but the auto industry, as a whole, has been very disappointing the last few decades. There isn't enough vision in the industry.
Thus, when I talk about GM's hybrids, it's not meant as a defense of GM in general, it's just talk about their hybrids.
I truly believe that GM's hybrid to fuel cell plans could revolutionize the automaker. Likewise, I also think there is a great chance that GM will fail to deliver on this revolution for many reasons.
I guess my fundamental gripe with them is that they are a bunch of lying bastards.
I'm not saying that Japanese automakers are better...hec...as a culture they have their fair share of lying, atrocities, etc...so on and so on.
It's just that given how in bed the US automakers are with oil and governmental companies, military, etc..[and anyone who thinks that's tinfoil hat theory is so out of touch with this world that they may as well start watching Kirk Cameron's evangelical videos and call it a day], I have no trust in them whatsoever.
The Japanese automakers I think have more to lose by not developing new products because they know full well that this country will (and has in the past) screw them.
So how does change happen? How do the people take power back from these Iron Triangles?
It's funny. As Americans we think we have freedom, but we're nothing but well-duped economic slaves.
That's a happy thought to get me fired up for the weekend! I think I feel an extended lunch coming - right into happy hour.
I recall that in the 60's GM were going to compete with the VW bug. they too came out with a rear mounted, air cooled engine. It turned out to be one of the biggest lemons in history.
Their Vega and Fiero's were not far behind in the race between the biggest dogs of all time.
and let's not forget the corvair.
but records, even bad records, are meant to be broken.
Toyota, Honda and such all make gas guzzling SUV & Truck vehicles...you are all blind and ignorant to the facts. What's the MPG of the Titan, Tundra, Ridgeline..etc?
GM makes more vehicle close to 30 MPG...and is working on all possible types of alternative fuel.
This is also not the 80's and GM no longer makes poor cars..because the cannot afford to.
I am angry you so called Americans continue to bash the domestic auto industry. It's people like you that will be the end of this country. China and Russia make foreign manufactures partner with their own companies...Japan taxes import vehicles...our government just invites them in and then you ignorant Toyota and Honda lovers don't see the long term affects. Please move to those countries and get the hell out of the USA. It's bad enough we have lost other industries...we don't need to lose another.
Yeah...GM was also ignorant to think they could sell junk and get away with it. I cannot tell you how many times I spent going back to the stupid dealership to fix the bugs. But that has changed and I for one, have pride in the American auto industry and your support of foriegn vehicles make me sick. I want GM/FORD/Chrysler to stay around and shut you people up. You are an insult to the American flag.
...and don't think for a second that Toyota didn't make "dog" vehicles...and still do...Yaris ring a bell...Echo.
JD-
Both Toyota and Honda fleet wide fuel economy is much better than any of the Big 3. That's the number that really matters, not models for sale. GM can offer 100 vehicles with 30 mpg, on the highway, but if few buy them, do they matter?
So, let's get real. Fleet wide fuel economy is the only number that matters, and that is where Toyota and Honda beat the Big 3.
Also, if you take the flex fuel credit away from GM, their fleet fuel economy would be utterly pathetic.
More important, highway fuel economy is irrelevant. Many of those 30 mpg cars achieve less than 20 mpg in tough urban congestion and all transportation studies indicate that congestion is quickly becoming the norm. Also, congestion is becoming more congested.
Are Toyota and GM much better than the Big 3 no. But they shouldn't be better at all. The Big 3 should represent America. Gas guzzling doesn't represent America, foreign oil dependency - according to numerous CIA officials current and past - is the greatest crisis facing American national security.
So, take your head out of the sand and deal with reality. When it comes to foreign oil dependency, the Big 3 have failed America for decades. As American companies, however, these companies should have been leading the fight against foreign oil dependency, especially since 9/11. Yet, instead, they released new lines of their biggest gas guzzlers ever.
And you call that American? How dare you!
YOU and YOUR gas guzzler have failed America. So, you have no right to talk about what is American or not.
If everyone had the same foreign oil footprint as me, we wouldn't need foreign oil. So you have no right to judge people like me.
America is about freedom. I live it you don't. So take your flag and stick it up your ass cuz you have no right to wave it.
JD:
I am angry you so called Americans continue to bash the domestic auto industry. It's people like you that will be the end of this country.
People like you are what will bring the end to this country. Not me...or Dahc...or people who have a say.
All you nationalistic fools would not have fit in well at all during the birth of the USA....because you'd have been considered a fascist for not allowing people to have dissent against corrupt, over bloated entities.
I don't understand people like you. You preach all this crap about America this, American that. But then you criticize and and whine about people who have the "right" to try and change what's wrong with this country.
Tell me....what exactly is it about GM that you love so much and you believe they have done so well in that they deserve to continue the way they do? Hmmm??
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