Audi A3 1.9TDIe: Who needs a Prius asks Angus?
A Prius killer?Angus of MotorTrend has been driving an Audi A3 1.9TDIe for the last few days, a nice new diesel vehicle that is making Angus ask why anyone needs a Toyota Prius. Ultimately, according to Angus, the Audi is more fuel efficient than the Prius, except in extreme traffic, and the Audi performs better, so maybe there is no need for hybrid cars? Finish reading.....
Labels: clean diesel, Foreign Oil Dependency, global warming, Hybrid Vehicles, toyota prius
posted by Dahcredyns at
9:35 AM
16 Comments:
Hate to tell you that diesel is a by-product in the refinement process of gasoline. That is why diesel has always been cheaper than gas, well until recently.
It is pretty clear that our friend who wrote the article "Audi A3 1.9TDIe: Who needs a Prius asks Angus?" has NEVER tried the Audi. I am a student in NYC and I've lived in the US the past 3 years, but I am Italian and I have tried both the Audi A3 TDIe (my cousin-in-law's car) and the Prius rented in L.A. for a week and driven for a little more than 2,000 miles all over California. The Audi is so better in the drive's pleasure that it's not even comparable to the Prius. It's like comparing a Buik to a Mercedes. Non the less the gas mileage claimed by Toyota is a pure lie. They claim 60mpg average I have never averaged more than 40mpg. In the highway at 70mph gets 42mpg where in the highway in Italy I averaged 18 kilometers per liter but at 130 km/h (our speed limit, which is 81 mph.)
This means 43mpg at a higher speed. In Italy we have diesel at every gas stations and it's slightly cheaper than regular gas. Maybe America should start pitting more diesel pumps and people should go on vacation in Europe instead of Hawaii or Mexico for once and try to rent some German's diesels then they we can talk about it. I come from there and diesel might not be the best answer to save our planet but it is way way way better than regular gasoline. The cars get more than 40% better gas mileage and have more torque and less carbon dioxide emission what you guys want more, drive to the moon?? Oh wait, you have done that already, if it is true...
Yes, diesel is a by-product of gasoline refinement, so is hydrogen, so does that justify the hydrogen economy?
More important, if all petroleum were converted into just diesel, it would take significantly more oil than is used today for the current refinement mix. Just diesel refinement would be far less efficient than today's mix and the world would be even more dependent upon petroleum and diesel prices would be even higher.
So, what's your point?
Re: the Prius
The Prius is a city a car. In Chicago and LA traffic the Prius was demonstrated to achieve 55 mpg, on average, in urban traffic by the likes of Edmunds.com (Check out Karl on Cars) and Cars.com, for example - I guess they are liars too?
Hypermilers have achieved well over 100 mpg with Prius hybrids without any modifications. Oh, excuse me, you only care about the drive quality, not your impact on the world. Sorry, my apologies.
So, let me ask you a question.
If its far less efficient and more dirty to produce a gallon of diesel versus a gallon of gasoline, how exactly is diesel vehicle efficiency really helping the world?
According to the Union of Concerned Scientists when the extra oil needed to produce diesel is coupled with the extra noxious emissions, diesel vehicle efficiency offers little compared to pure gasoline vehicles if you care about global warming or foreign oil dependency, but perhaps you've sniffed a few too many of those noxious fumes to care about such trivial issues?
Oh yeah, and the Prius could just as easily be a diesel Prius. Fuel is irrelevant, so your whole argument is ultimately pointless.
More important, when exactly will diesel end oil dependence?
That's right never.
Hybrids, on the other hand, have already been converted into well over 100 mpg vehicles, even 150 mpg vehicles. But who needs such vehicles, if we all just convert to diesel, oil will become so much less problematic, right?
Ultimately, the difference between diesel and hybrids, such as the Prius, is that diesel has been around more than 100 years and evolved little.
Hybrids, as a mainstream technology, have only just emerged, and within just a few decades they will significantly reduce the world's dependence on oil while significantly reducing pollution and global warming.
That's why I'll take a Prius over a diesel any and every day, unless its a diesel hybrid because I believe in investing in the future. Call me silly, but investing in a technology that can adapt and evolve to produce a better world is a little more important than feeling like some wannabe race car driver.
Really? The diesel has been around for 100 years and evolved little? This just shows you are not being honest. Diesel started with slow cars that were averaging just little better gas mileage than gasoline-based cars and with noise, smoke and bad smell. Today the last generation diesel by BMW, Mercedes, Audi and Volkswagen is getting 40 to 50% better gas mileage than the same model powered by regular gasoline engine, a way lower carbon dioxide emission and now the same smog emissions. In my city in Italy (where actually have more strict rules about cars pollution than America) in the center are only allowed the last EURO4 and EURO5 cars with gasoline engine and (wow!) the diesels produced after 2002. Interesting. As a matter of fact diesel is overtaking gasoline in Europe and Hybrids are not overtaking anything because of the sophisticated and MORE EXPENSIVE technology. The problem is that now diesel is not available everywhere in the US and for some reasons diesel cars are way more expensive than the gasoline-based ones. However, in Europe the diesel version is just slightly more expensive, but way more successful. Let's just see what is going to happen in the future. I am here proposing you a bet. Diesel is pushing the US market with VW, Audi, Mercedes, BMW, Subaru and even your Toyota. Let's see in 10 years if the Prius will have had more success than German and japanese's diesel cars. Unfortunately Americans probably do prefer feeling like race car drivers, so diesel is the most practical answer for helping the environment now.
It all depends on how you drive a car. Those tests are often made by driving a car below 2000 rpm. If you drive the Prius 30 mph top speed and always starting at the stoplights as slow as you can, you can probably get 55mpg in a city. However, when I drove the Prius in New York City, where I live, I managed 38mpg and I wasn't even driving like Shumacher, if you know who he is. The main point is not that I don't care of the environment, but the fact that Americans do like to feel like a race car driver my friend! For these reasons, the most efficient way now to help the environment is to switch to diesel, which engines have evolved A LOT in the last 100 years, because where 30 years ago diesel cars were slower, had more carbon dioxide emissions and got just little better gas mileage with a lot of smoke and bad smell, TODAY diesel engines are as fast as gasoline engines, get 40 to 50% better gas mileage and have lower carbon dioxide emissions. THIS IS THE BEST ANSWER TO HELP THE ENVIRONMENT TODAY FOR THE US. Last but not least, in Europe diesel is overtaking gasoline in number of cars and, as far as I know, there is more pollution here in America than in Europe. Interesting. Anyway, I am ready to make a bet with you. Let's see in 10 years what will have had more success, if the Hybrids or the new VW, Audi, Mercedes, BMW, Subaru and yes even Toyota new diesels coming up in the US. The time will answer, friend.
You don't want to show my comments uh? Democratic, very democratic
i have to use comment moderation to prevent comment spam, otherwise, some dude in china writes wow gold over and over and over. when i sleep i can't quite moderate now can I?
do some research on diesel, you are mistaken re the facts. diesel refinement is more dirty and less efficient than gasoline refinement. those are simply facts.
in america foreign oil dependency is a serious problem that diesel offers no solution to. likewise, if america converted to diesel, again, then diesel prices would skyrocket worldwide as more oil would be needed to achieve the same amount of energy.
most important, if you think diesel from well-to-wheel is superior to gasoline in terms of pollution and global warming than gasoline, then you really have been sniffing too many diesel fumes.
again, you need to do some research on diesel refinement and emissions. its not just about the car right? its about the refining it took to get diesel to the pump as well.
most important, in the urban tests done by cars.com and edmunds.com, multiple drivers were used and the drivers drove the jetti tdi, for example, in the same conditions. great care was given to drive the same in each car. both studies, using multiple drivers over a couple of different days, achieved about 55 mpg - by far the superior city economy and much better than the jetta diesel in the same conditions.
yes, this is because they didn't go very fast, which is usually the case in much of urban commuting, a condition which affects 10's of millions of drivers every day in southern california, where i live, not to mention most large urban areas. a condition which some studies claim costs the average SoCal driver a few thousand per year just idling in traffic. this is where the prius excels.
and, according to transportation studies, the problem of congestion in america is progressively getting much worse, so these conditions are going to become more and more common into the future.
i never said the prius was the perfect, most fun car to drive. but if you car about foreign oil dependency, global warming and, especially if you live in an urban area, the prius is the best car in america without question. to that point consumer reports, probably the most important car ratings available, agrees.
more important, the prius has only been available for about 10 years. the next prius due out next year, is to be faster, bigger and even more fuel efficient than the current version - somewhere between 10 and 30 percent.
when lithium replaces nimh, fuel efficiency of the prius will again increase very significantly and that could happen within the next couple of years and certainly within the next five years. that means in the worst kinds of driving conditions imaginable the prius will be emitting almost no pollution, no CO2 while achieving probably more than 80 mpg.
additionally, going to lithium will enable the prius to offer plug-in capabilities and use nothing but electricity for much of the average commute and very little liquid fuel. such vehicles will be mass produced within the decade, and not just the prius, but the chevy volt, the opel flextreme, chrysler ecovoyager, etc.
if the future is diesel my friend, the world has no future because the oil-driven energy economy isn't sustainable. at this point it will only lead to war.
the tides of change are flowing.
again, i'm not anti diesel, but it's not a solution against foreign oil dependency or global warming in america. can diesel outperform hybrids on the highway, yes. but highway driving isn't the future, nor is it the condition causing the most problems in america.
in urban congestion the prius beat the jetta diesel, similarly-sized clean diesel vehicle and the prius, and hybrids overall, still haven't even hit their stride yet.
You are talking from general technical data, I am talking from experience. I am from Europe and I lived there for 26 years before I moved to New York 4 years ago. You are saying that diesel is more polluted than gas, so how come that all over Europe, when there are restrictions in urban areas for pollution the last generation diesel together with the very last generation gasoline cars are the only allowed in the center of the cities?
I guess we are all stupid in Europe! The governments too! I don't think so. I also remember that AMERICA is the bigger polluter IN THE WORLD! By far more than China and India together! Wow! I don't think I am stupid either. I have been driving since I was 15 and I have probably covered about 200,000 miles with any kind of car. Stick shift mostly. Can you drive stick shift cars? Oh, I am sure you can, not the Prius though because it's only automatic, and I am sure you drive it pretty slowly to get 55mpg in the city. I drove the Prius in New York city as I already said and I didn't touch 40mpg. If you really want to talk about a "city car" you should talk about the Smart! Oh wait, Americans prefer Suburbans... That's the real problem that neither you nor me will solve. Here people want V6 or better V8 cars! In Europe we have 1 liter cars that pollute 10 times less than your huge SUV's. In fact the average MPG in america is about 20 miles per gallon lower than in Europe. My best friend drives every day in the traffic of Bologna with his Smart diesel and gets better gas mileage than my motorcycle! My bike only gets 42-43 mpg in the city, his Smart almost 60. and the carbon dioxide emissions of the smart are 88 grams per kilometer, where for the Prius (also sold in Europe with way less success) is 104 grams!!! Can you believe it? Probably you should also check some data... You know what is sad? That I am the only one who is answering in your blog, because probably NOBODY CARES! Further more, the fact that we are talking about nothing, because even if apparently SUV's are selling less, Americans will still choose 3 liters V6 or V8 with more than 250 horses, and the US will still be the biggest polluter, with sorrow for Al Gore who is fighting a battle that he cannot win. I love driving and I love our planet as well. I love the mountains and the ocean with their sports and I will never buy a huge gasoline SUV that gets 17mpg average like many people around here or a Mustang Shelby with almost 600 HP to drive at 1500 rpm at 65 mph on the highway. I will most likely buy a Smart, which is PERFECT for a city like New York, better if diesel and with semi-automatic transmission or a nice A3 1.9 TDIe manual, if one day I will have a family. Oh, wait... I forgot that with the Smart I can be killed in an accident by a soccer mom with a Suburban... !!!
Good luck with your job, whatever it is and if I see you on the road we can go to the first gas station, fill up our tanks and see who drives more... If my A3 TDIe or your Hybrid. Ciao bello!
i have never heard before that diesel requires more of a refining process than gasoline. id really like to know where you are getting your facts from. because though any research i have done, i have never found anything like what you you are saying. ill admit that i am a bit biased, having driven my tdi since 1999. show me a prius with 200k on it still doing 60mpg at 65mph. if you live in a city and want to reduce oil dependancy its simple, get a bicycle.
diesel requires more oil, not more of a refining process. there are a number of studies out there, just google diesel versus gasoline for instance. i know that the union of concerned scientists, for example, has published data on this subject for one.
your city comment is entirely ignorant. have you ever been to a city? most don't live just a few blocks or just a few miles from their work. many live 10 or 20 miles apart.
it's pretty hard to ride a bicycle from West Los Angeles to East Los Angeles, for example. yet, in those conditions your TDI would achieve less than 30 mpg, a prius at least 45, although I could do well over 50.
i guess your research also hasn't included any transportation studies either. today, more people live in urban areas than rural areas and that trend is picking up pace. thus, congestion is rapidly increasing, meaning the future of most commutes is slow, stop and go traffic. in such traffic the prius blows away similarly sized diesels.
A lot of the assertions in this article about Diesel are simply wrong.
Diesel requires less oil per gallon (not more) to refine. Diesel emits less carbon emissions than gasoline per gallon, because it combusts more completely; it's just perceived as dirty because of the soot and nitrogen emissions, which gas does not have, but this problem has been resolved with new clean diesels. The only reason diesel is currently more expensive than gas is because of a relatively low supply and increased demand since diesel is also used as heating oil. But once more refineries are built (which is being done currently) diesel will cost the same as gas, if not less.
But cost aside, with the new clean diesels there is nothing better about hybrids. Hybrids are after all just gasoline cars, with an electric engine driven by a gasoline generator. But they run on gas, that's where their energy comes from. So since diesel has a lower carbon foot print and can get better mileage than a hybrid, it is more enivornmentally sound.
Of course a diesel hybrid might be better than both. But hybrids should not be confused with all electric cars. That's a different story, because an electric car can get its energy off the grid and in principle that might someday come from wind, etc., and other renewable resources.
Anyway, it's a shame that this article perpetuates so many completely incorrect ideas about diesel.
last anon-
"The improved efficiency of diesel engines can also help reduce oil consumption. It should be noted, however, that it takes about 25% more oil to make a gallon of diesel fuel than a gallon of gasoline, so we should really look at how a vehicle does on fuel efficiency in terms of "oil equivalents"
That comes from the Union of Concerned Scientists. Which scientists support your claim?
Diesel in the US does cost more because of a lack of refineries, that is true. Just as diesel costs less than gas in Europe because of gasoline taxes.
Additionally, diesels are not superior to hybrids in city fuel economy, which, according to numerous transportation studies is the future of world transportation.
According to the EPA, A manual VW Jetta TDI is rated 30 mpg in the city, 41 on the highway. The Toyota Prius is 48 and 45, respectively.
Those are two very similarly sized vehicles. Yet, the hybrid is 18 mpg better in the city, and the EPA doesn't even test for extreme congestion, such as found in most major cities during rush hour.
Also, let's clear up your misconceptions about hybrid and electric cars.
1.) Hybrid cars are fuel INDEPENDENT. Hybrid cars are not defined by gasoline, as you state.
2.) Plug-in hybrids, such as the Chevy Volt, will enable drivers to do almost ALL of their daily driving using nothing but electricity, as will many series hybrids. Parallel plug-in hybrids will use some fuel, but they'll still achieve well in excess of 100 mpg.
3.) In the very near future, ALL hybrids, even non-plug-in hybrids, will be using lithium, the same lithium that will be used to power electric vehicles. The fact is, hybrid technology helps scale down the costs of EV technology in terms of batteries and many other parts necessary for the full electrification of the automobile.
A conventional Prius using lithium averaged more than 80 mpg in most driving conditions, and as much as 100 or mpg in other conditions, when Toyota was testing for production early this year. While this technology is not yet ripe for the Prius, it will be in a few years. But, let's forgo that progress in favor of diesel?
Please.
I'm not a against diesel, but to say that diesel is superior to hybrid technology is utterly stupid. Hybrids are about the future, diesels are about the past.
So if all of our cars start using lithium in the future for batteries, aren't we really just going to be replacing one type of scarce resource with another? I'm no expert, but I find it hard to believe that there is a massive lithium surplus in the world that is ready to meet our needs. This has always been my major argument against hybrids. I love the immediate environmental impact in the form of lower emissions and greater gas mileage, but what about the mining involved in obtaining lithium, nickel, lead, or whatever type of battery you have? Doesn't the environmental cost outweigh the environmental benefits?
With diesel, however, there is a solution that helps everyone. While we normally only think of diesel as a fossil fuel, we are forgetting about BIODIESEL. This is a carbon neutral (or maybe even carbon negative, as some studies have shown with algae biodiesel) that works in modern engines, and is RENEWABLE, unlike lithium and fossil fuels. Also, various types of biodiesel can be grown all over the place, making it so that you don't have one geographic area controlling biodiesel output, keeping costs down.
Unfortunately, we Americans are very close minded when it comes to energy matters and specially Oil. In America until recently we did not have any concerns about gas expenditure, well my friends those days are over. Gas prices went up and it became a heavy expense for most American families.Auto makers need to change their approach and we have to change our behaviors and mindsets.We need to be more open to new ideas and solutions that will improve our quality of life not only in terms of profitability but more importantly in terms of environment.Lets fate it. we have done very little to protect it and one day if not us, next generations will pay for this greediness. Our children my pay for it!!! Electric cars will be the future but it's not the solution that we need today. Like the Anonymous person said Diesel cars are here to stay and they are in reality the solution that is available to consumer TODAY.It's a wildly known fact that diesel gives you better millage then gas and with the new ultra clean diesel, it also pollutes less then Gasoline.Diesel better mileage is the reason why 99% of trucks that are used for long distance product transportation run on diesel. We will see an increase in the number of especially European automakers offering new models of these vehicles which can cut in almost half our oil consumption. Most European families have to survive with less then one 4th of what we Americans make so yes, their were smarter and more efficient and developed/implemented a more affordable way of transportation which still provides acceptable performance for the average consumer.Diesel is the solution America needs for today!
last anon-
i agree with many of your points. also, i'm certainly not against diesel. diesel, especially in the short term, is an important interim piece of the puzzle.
still diesel cannot go far enough by itself, and it must be paired with other technologies, such as hybrid and bio-versions of diesel fuel.
in large vehicles, diesel and natural gas probably make the most sense, although hybrid technology can probably still help for some applicatons.
in smaller vehicles, hybrid and plug-in technologies must be developed.
most important, inevitably, we must move away from all petroleum vehicles, including those powered by diesel.
also, there is more than enough lithium to convert all vehicles in the world to plug-in vehicles.
the question should be, is that more environmental, economic and socially-friendly than something like diesel, especially biodiesel?
thus far, biodiesel has not proven it can replace petroleum by any means without serious consequences in many areas.
on the other hand, most studies have shown that in 20 - 30 years lithium-powered hybrids and EVs, significantly powered with renewable energy, such as solar, are realistic options based upon realistic breakthroughs and scalability in these technologies.
in my opinion, biofueled hybrids and plug-ins are the best long term path for diesel vehicles. thus, biofuels and plug-ins should only be seen as complementary technologies.
however, to imagine that diesel, and eventually biodiesel, is the fix to americas - and the worlds - long term energy problems seems a terribly naive and un-pragmatic idea.
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