Hybrid cars and EPA estimates: This is War
Are some journalists ignorant, liars, or just plain biased?
How many articles have you read about hybrid cars, such as the Toyota Prius, and how they don't achieve EPA estimates?
For the record, the Prius CAN meet EPA estimates. If you are on the highway you have to drive 55 mph, without air conditioning, without excessive wind, and on flat roads. However, in city driving, the Prius can achieve 60 mpg, even with the AC on, but that isn't the point.
The real point is the gross inaccuracy of EPA estimates on ALL vehicles. According to some studies, the average CONVENTIONAL vehicle - not hybrid - falls short of its EPA fuel efficiency ratings by as much as 35%!
In fact, according to the Detroit News, the latest effort to fix the EPA fuel efficiency ratings wasn't prevented by Toyota to protect its hybrids, rather it was blocked by Detroit. HMMM, I wonder what Detroit has to hide? Are Detroit's gas guzzlers even far more gas guzzling than the EPA rates them? YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's really annoying to hear about how Japan, or China, don't act fairly towards the U.S. in the automarket because of protectionism by those countries. Yet, what is it when Congress refuses to increase fuel efficiency standards, refuses to make EPA estimates actually reflect real world driving, hides EPA reports demonstrating how the Big 3 utilize loopholes to avoid making their vehicles more fuel efficient, and adds diesels and silly caps to the clean vehicle tax credit that punish Toyota?
That's playing fair?
For decades the U.S. Congress has protected and continues to protect the gross inefficiencies of the Big 3, and what has it given America? Rollover scandals, 2 wars in Iraq, extreme American hate throughout the Middle East, and a War on Terror.
That's the real issue.
So, the next time you read a journalist start to discuss the shortcomings of hybrids by noting that they don't achieve EPA estimates, realize you are dealing with either an ignorant journalist, or a biased media whore.
How many articles have you read about hybrid cars, such as the Toyota Prius, and how they don't achieve EPA estimates?
For the record, the Prius CAN meet EPA estimates. If you are on the highway you have to drive 55 mph, without air conditioning, without excessive wind, and on flat roads. However, in city driving, the Prius can achieve 60 mpg, even with the AC on, but that isn't the point.
The real point is the gross inaccuracy of EPA estimates on ALL vehicles. According to some studies, the average CONVENTIONAL vehicle - not hybrid - falls short of its EPA fuel efficiency ratings by as much as 35%!
In fact, according to the Detroit News, the latest effort to fix the EPA fuel efficiency ratings wasn't prevented by Toyota to protect its hybrids, rather it was blocked by Detroit. HMMM, I wonder what Detroit has to hide? Are Detroit's gas guzzlers even far more gas guzzling than the EPA rates them? YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's really annoying to hear about how Japan, or China, don't act fairly towards the U.S. in the automarket because of protectionism by those countries. Yet, what is it when Congress refuses to increase fuel efficiency standards, refuses to make EPA estimates actually reflect real world driving, hides EPA reports demonstrating how the Big 3 utilize loopholes to avoid making their vehicles more fuel efficient, and adds diesels and silly caps to the clean vehicle tax credit that punish Toyota?
That's playing fair?
For decades the U.S. Congress has protected and continues to protect the gross inefficiencies of the Big 3, and what has it given America? Rollover scandals, 2 wars in Iraq, extreme American hate throughout the Middle East, and a War on Terror.
That's the real issue.
So, the next time you read a journalist start to discuss the shortcomings of hybrids by noting that they don't achieve EPA estimates, realize you are dealing with either an ignorant journalist, or a biased media whore.
Labels: Congress, fuel efficiency, Hybrid Vehicles, prius, toyota
posted by Dahcredyns at
8:19 AM
14 Comments:
I came to this site looking for information on American made hybrid cars. Somehow this reviewer managed to drag his disgusting left wing politics into what should be a reasonable, unbiased discussion of the facts.
So who is the "biased media whore" (your words) here? Yes, I agree the EPA needs to change the way they measure gas mileage. As for the political equation, last time I checked, 99% of the media was biased the same way you are, so I don't know why you are complaining about your brothers in deception.
It is dangerous, utter folly to blame the Islamic fundamentalist attacks on our purchase of oil produced in Islamic countries. They want you dead, whether or not you buy their oil. In fact, if the terrorists ever suceed in taking over our society, their first target will be the freedoms that liberals use to swamp us with their tawdry entertainment and their (your) elitist propaganda.
Doug,
Please.
Bin Laden has stated quite clearly that America's presence on the Saudi Arabian Peninsula and its influence and practices in Muslim countries are the reason for his angst and hatred of America.
Do some research.
Numerous ex-officials from the CIA, NSA, and the Pentagon agree that foreign oil dependency is the greatest threat to American National Security. This includes CIA directors from past Republican administrations.
America's presence in the Middle East is about one thing, OIL. If you don't believe that then you are simply being silly.
This isn't a leftist issue, this is a National Security issue.
As for a "biased media whore", I am biased, but I am not a media whore as I don't sell advertising to the companies that I write about, therefore, I am not whoring myself to my advertisers.
Also, I wish I could have been writing about American hybrids, but since American automakers, such as GM, would rather spend $3 billion per year marketing gas guzzling vehicles, rather than developing fuel efficient vehicles, I guess I won't get to do that. That's American!
Oh, yeah, fuel cells, right, Doug?
Sure, GM has been buying American polticians for decades telling them that fuel cells are just around the corner and they'll be just around the corner for another few decades.
Remember, the saying "Hungry, try eating your import." Why doesn't that count for oil, Doug?
Do I smell hypocrisy?
If you think America's ever-increasing foreign oil dependency is a good thing - it INCREASES every year - keep driving your gas-guzzler.
And, if you think foreign oil dependency isn't funding terrorism and that American funded dictators in Suadi Arabia don't breed hate of America in Saudi Arabia, then you live in fantasy land, not reality.
there's real world gas mileage estimates for hybrids (and conventionals) here:
http://www.gasaroo.com
This whole article is based on false information. The Ford Focus get 26 at worst not 17 city miles per gallon as stated in the article. I own one with 90K miles and no problems - I believe that Atlanta traffic and getting from 31 - 25 MPG on average is better than the 17 MPG stated in the article. get the facts right before you write an inaccurate article.
Why would I get my facts right if my goal was to write an inaccurate article?
Make a clear argument at least.
As for my 'facts'. Any fuel economy estimates I use come from Consumer Reports. If you want to question their 'facts' that's fine, but I'd still say they are more objective than you.
Some Prius drivers achieve over 60 mpg, others achieve only 40 mpg. Obviously, in all cars, there is great range in fuel economy - that's why they use an average.
Additionally, just because you live in Atlanta doesn't mean your commute is mostly congested miles. The point of Consumer Reports was to demonstrate that in stop and go traffic almost all vehicles achieve far less than their EPA estimates.
So, take it easy.
Well, if journalists can be such liars and CR posted 26 mpg for the Civic, then why even refer to that figure? Heck, why not check the www.greenhybrid.com mileage database and to your amazement (I guess !!!) you'll see that the Prius II and Civic hybrid II are just 1 mpg appart... this is according according to the thousands of users that log their mileage there regularly. Also for a good double-check stop by www.cleanmpg.com for a verification of this fact.
I own a 2007 Prius and 2006 HCH and they are literally producing the same mileage (the Prius has a 1mpg edge over the HCH during the summer, and the roles reverse during the winter). Does that make the Prius 2 as much of a winner as you claim it to be over the HCH ?
Regards;
DF
Msantos-
I don't mean to be rude, but if whatever site you reference claims that fuel mileage between the Civic hybrid the Prius are equal, then that site is full of it.
Even worse, a Prius equal to a Highlander hybrid - please! That is complete nonsense.
Once again, the fuel economy reports are independent of any of my views. Consumer Reports, Forbes, and many other independent news channels have found the Prius to be the undisputed king of fuel economy.
So, if you're telling me that the Prius is no more efficient than both the Civic hybrid and the Highlander hybrid, then I'd say go smoke some more of the joint that you were smoking before this post because you are absolutely, 100%, full of it.
dach,
Please double check your math in your post.
If a car is driven 15,000 miles at 60 miles per gallon it would use 250 gallons. At $3.20 per gallon it would cost $800.
15,000 miles at 17 mpg and $3.20/gal comes out to about $2800.
the savings is about $2000, not the $4500 as stated. This is still a very strong incentive to buy.
thanks, Scott
Excellent article!!! Good research and extremely good rational. You probably said a few things peoplpe dont want to hear but you are right.
Amit
Interesting discussion. Thanks for posting it.
In the immortal words of every automobile ad from the '70's onward: "Your mileage may vary."
My experience with hybrids tells me that the CR test (or any other short-term test) of mileage on hybrids will probably underestimate the mileage. It took considerable time - about a month - to adjust my driving style to get the kind of mileage one would expect from a hybrid.
When I first got my Civic hybrid, I got about 28 mpg - it was winter, in the mountains, with lots of potholes and frost-heaves and tons of traction-free driving (giving a great simulator for stop & go traffic).
Luckily, hybrids provide real-time gas mileage feedback. As a result, you find yourself watching not just your speed but you mileage (beware: for a couple of weeks, your driving safety suffers because you're watching your mileage so much). Sometimes, the difference between 40 mph and 60 mpg is a minute change in pressure on the pedal. You won't lose speed, but you will gain mileage by just tipping your toes up a tad. This and learning to pay more attention as you approach stop lights (more coasting) and as you start off from a stop (no jack-rabbits) makes an incredible difference. Of course, this difference can happen with non-hybrids, too, it just won't be so dramatic.
I'm now averaging 50+ mpg on the same roads, and the mileage will get better as the weather warms up. On highway driving - through the mountains - I get about 39 mpg if I keep it around 75. If I behave like a mileage geek and drive 60, then it's closer to 48 mpg. It's a huge improvement over the V70 I used to drive, which, though advertised at 25 mpg, only averaged 17 mpg.
I have an acquaintance with a Prius and a Civic hybrid. Both get similar mileage (within a few mpg) when driven on the same roads once the driver is acclimated to the car. Before acclimation, though, forget it.
Ah come on, quit blathering about Bin Laden and left-wing whatever. The prius is a better car than most.
American cars suck, and they HAVE sucked for a long time. So what. Don't try to guess my politics for saying it. My dad was a marine.
I am not sure why I have kept reading this stuf, but here are a few thoughts.
My research left the hybreds wanting because of the high purchase price and the low resale value. A small vehicle (as in Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic) driven carefully (55 on the highway and easy starts) will be very hard to beat in the long run when you consider the purchase price and the resale value.
As far as epa ratings are concerned, I consistantly beat them on both my vehicles. Basically, I find the epa ratings on the low side. There are many midsize cars that will get about 35mpg on the highway when driven sensibly (again 55 - 60 mph).
It will be a long time before you see a hybrid in my garage.
Jimbill
Well, I did the math when gas prices went up, and couldn't (economically) justify buying a hybrid even if gas prices went to $10/gallon. I decided to start bike commuting, and keep my F-150. So far, I've logged around 1500 miles this year, saved around $400 in gas, and lost a little weight.
I figure I've done my part by *not* buying a new car (not helping the economy, though) and thus not incurring all of the energy and waste associated with building a new vehicle.
Lars
Well, I'm not sure about your math, but I fully support the bike riding.
In terms of math, Edmunds, Consumer Reports and a number of other influential auto resources did the math - based on the average commuter's averages - and found much different results once gas tops $3.00 - a price California has been close to or topped for many months now. A few weeks ago it was 3+ near my LA home. Today, it was 2.92.
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